Bonsai on a Budget

[Smoke]

Is quenching good or bad?

Well here is the skinny. There are many here that will tell you quenching does not matter on copper. heating and quenching steel or iron will harden it. Heating and quenching copper seem to make no difference in the softness after the quench. What quenching does to copper is add brittleness, it also changes the molecular structure in the conductiveness of the metal. In my day job I see miles of copper wire already stripped and heated to soft nature after fires in houses. I could roll up thousands of feet a week of this in no. 12 and 14 and some no. 8 and 6 from 220 volt wire. The wire at first feels soft, unbelievable soft, until it reaches a point and then it just breaks. Why does it break? It breaks because when the fire was hot the wire softened and then the fire department gets there and sprays the whole house with water and foaming agent. It makes the wire brittle and unusable.

Jim fires his wire in a kiln and allows it to cool in the kiln, thus keeping the super soft wire. Wire made in an open flame may be quenched ( Julian) I do not know, but I do know that quenching a roll of wire will quench unevenly making the outside of the roll much more brittle (I said brittle not hard) than the inside part of the roll. This internal brittleness is what makes a roll of newly annealed wire seem unevenly annealed.

Don't quench it, there is absolutely no reason to quench freshly annealed wire. Just allow it to cool on the driveway or sidewalk on the side of the house and collect your soft wire in an hour.

 

[A Random User]

Lol!!!

Stacy, you and I had one of those posting wars/ arguments about copper vs aluminum about 3 years ago on this forum, back when you were posting using another name.

Glad to see you finally see things my way! I told you all the things you just posted, and you told me they were all BS!!

I DON't want to start another war. But, you owe it to yourself yo try Jim Gremel's wire. I have used both Adams and Gremel's wire, and Gremel's is better and more consistent. Julian's is good. It's just that Gremel's is a little bit better.

I have spoken to each of them personally and discussed wire. I didn't get any "secrets" (I didn't ask), but I can tell you that Gremel heats his in his kiln. Adams heats his in an open fire. Adams heats his until the color looks right, Gremel is more scientific: heating at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time.

Yes, I remember! You said you could not use aluminum on conifers, and I said you could... I still think you can if folks want to. I see plenty of folks using aluminum wire doing seriously heavy bending on enormous conifers coming out of places like Taiwan, Korea, Indonesia, etc.

Even the argument of it not being as strong can be overcome with just thicker wire. So, I still believe what I said to be true. One does not need to use copper. This is not a requirement of doing bonsai.

The only real reasoning behind using it is more of a cosmetic one... it looks nicer.

 

[Adair M]

Well, you CAN use aluminum on conifers, but copper works better.

 

[A Random User]

As far as the wire and whether or not Adam ' s is good or not good, I have never found any inconsistencies in his product, I also have never found it to be of any better or worse quality that any other copper wire I have gotten from anyone else...

I as mentioned in a previous post, I go through a ton of his copper on a continuous basis and if there was inconsistencies within the product he supplies, I would probably be the first to know.

 

[A Random User]

Well, you CAN use aluminum on conifers, but copper works better.

I would agree.
However, this was not what was argued at the time.

 

[carp]

not to stop the discussion, because it's all good information, but my point was that the OP made a statement and said, "you must" and gave no reasoning. beyond that, this thread was originally about doing bonsai on a budget; why copper if you're on a budget?

 

[coh]

I may have posted this before, but after reading over and over about how Gremel's wire was better, I bought some when he was here for the last National Exhibition. Had always used Julian's wire. Now, after using both and comparing some side-by-side (i.e. wiring the same tree alternately with Adams wire/Gremel wire of the same size), I can say that I didn't notice any difference in hardness or brittleness, or any tendency for one to be more inconsistent than the other.

 

[sorce]

but I do know that quenching a roll of wire will quench unevenly making the outside of the roll much more brittle

This may be why I get decent results,
Because I only quench 2-3 loops at a time, usually one or 2.

Anyway, I think I will let them set next time, and see what it's like.

Anybody got a ciln for sale?

Sorce

 

[A Random User]

not to stop the discussion, because it's all good information, but my point was that the OP made a statement and said, "you must" because gave no reasoning. beyond that, this thread was originally about doing bonsai on a budget; why copper if you're on a budget?

Would agree...
However, I would have to say that it would be interesting to somehow test the use of aluminum, verses copper , and the real cost of each.

For myself, I can say that if I was to try and tell you one was cheaper than the other I would have to say that I don't know if it is... and if so, not by much.

My reasoning would be that I think one has to use more wire and thicker wire to do the same job, which thicker wire cost more... and if one needs to double it up, now they have twice the cost.

 

[Adair M]

Carp, sometimes aluminum just doesn't do the job.
Maybe you have to double up on the aluminum. Is it cheaper then?

But, the aesthetics play an important part, too. Copper wire darkens over time making it less noticeable. Aluminum wire is silver colored. Or is painted. The paint wears off. Then, it turns silver!

And it's not unusual to leave wire on for a couple years. So, thinner wire, that visually "disappears" over time or thicker wire that becomes more visible over time?

 

[sorce]

. So, thinner wire, that visually "disappears" over time or thicker wire that becomes more visible over time?

Age dependent answer!

Sorce

 

[carp]

@sawgrass and @Adair M ; I guess I'm thinking too local. Wiring a Ficus 3-4 times a year with copper would certainly be more expensive than doing so with aluminum. But, when you only wire a tree once and it is going to remain there for a few years, I guess it would be about the same cost.

 

[A Random User]

@sawgrass and @Adair M ; I guess I'm thinking too local. Wiring a Ficus 3-4 times a year with copper would certainly be more expensive than doing so with aluminum. But, when you only wire a tree once and it is going to remain there for a few years, I guess it would be about the same cost.

I understand and agree with you, however, I wire the same ficus and cut it off and redo it the same amount of times.

Out of town currently... was at Wigert's today. When I get home I will try to examine further, cause I have heard the argument of it being cheaper, but as mentioned, not really sure it is.

If one needs a thicker gauge wire for aluminum, what is this price per roll?
If one can use a smaller copper wire, how small to have the same holding capability, and what is the price of this wire, per roll?

It would be interesting to see what the actual difference would be... the smaller the copper, the cheaper the price... the larger the aluminum, the more expensive the cost.

 

[Adair M]

Ficus is a conifer? News to me!

I don't do ficus. Use whatever kind of wire you want!

Deciduous trees also get aluminum. I wire only the new shoots that aren't lignified. And I only leave the wire on for maybe 2 months at most. By then, it has lignified, and the shape is set. No reason to leave the wire on any longer.

I do pines and junipers. For those I use copper. I wired my olive using aluminum. I use the appropriate wire for the job.

 

[Anthony]

http://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper

note the Tips,
Good Day
Anthony

 

[armetisius]

5
Okay; so, I have hung back and shut up. Waited 5 to let me digest and temper my opinion. But 5 days is long enough.
When I lived in NOLA we had a saying: "You can line up 5 cooks and get 20 recipes for the same dish."
Bonsai is nothing more than a bis a$$ pot of gumbo. What the heck you through in, you work with and, in the end, its all good. I produce
plants, I can tell you (and will) anything and everything that I do to root a cutting HERE. But my experiences here are little more than
useless in Boston or Dallas or LA. The varying angle of light, the length of season, the temps--it is all diff in all of these places. So it ends
up different recipes (approaches) for the same things to be achieved. Throw into the mix that we all also have differing goals for our trees.
Some of us just like to get a plant started well and get it out of our face; others want to fawn over one for thirty years and I admire that
single mindedness; while still others, for whatever misplaced reason, have to have someone else tell them theirs' is better than his or some
other insane reason. What the hell ever.
Grow a pair; or at least act like you still have a functioning pair.
I grow what I grow because I enjoy it and if you aren't enjoying what you do; you have more problems than I could deal with on a forum post.
Your, and my and his and hers, opinions are just that opinions. Mine is just as valid as any other; as is yours. Grow your plants; enjoy your plants;
and let those who must "crow" and be "stroked" to feel as though they are achieving something be damned. Now it is not like this same sort of HS
doesn't kick off every Fall and every Spring. Some are hoping to be the new "hot young rising star" and begin dispensing advice that is either incorrect,
inappropriate, or just downright offensive. They usually weed themselves out when reality--read that as lack of real talent--sets in. Much the same as
a multi-national buffet--this too will pass.
And in keeping with the opening:
That is my 2 cents worth --- Adjusted for inflation.

 

[Adair M]

Armetisius,

Can you distill that down to one sentence? What's your point? That there are many ways to do something?

 

[sorce]

May I go with.......

Bonsai is nothing more than a bis a$$ pot of gumbo

Everyone doesn't like everything in a gumbo.
But it is a Big A$$ pot, you may take what you like from it!

Sorce

 

[armetisius]

Armetisius, Can you distill that down to one sentence? What's your point? That there are many ways to do something?

No but I can put it into a list.

1. It is a hobby; treat it like one.
2. IF someone has the trees/time involved listen and take their advice as a starting point.
3. Be ready to adjust that advice for your location/growing methods.
4. How ever you choose to grow/style; it is for YOUR enjoyment.
5. If you are so insecure that somebody else has to tell you that it is good enough for you to enjoy. Stop and reconsider whether you need a different hobby or not.
6. I don't care how many of Picasso's works you own. Without the talent/skill set you will NEVER be the new Picasso. And it gives the rest of us someone to laugh at.
   
7. When the realization of #6 comes to pass it gives the rest of us some bargains on your pots/tools/etc.
8. Quit taking yourself so seriously. If your trees are good enough that they survive you, read that as good enough a start that someone else would want to take up where you left off, nobody will remember you started it anyway.
9. Quit looking for the "that a boy" moment and enjoy yourself.
   
10. If someone is pi$$ing in your cornflakes; take a shyte in their oatmeal and move on.

Simple enough though a bit more blunt than the previous.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Looks like Adair's not the only one with a wine collection