Branch, Knob, Concave, whats the point?

PiñonJ

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I bought most basic bonsai tools over the last year. No purchase I regret, but I got to say that as a beginner, you can go a looooooong way with only a decent pair of shears (I’d favour the long-handle ones) and a quality bypass pruner. The $80 wire cutters and jin pliers makes me laugh....they are useful, but until you wire lots and lots, any pair of cutters and pliers from a big box store can do the job (and you won’t be afraid to use them for non bonsai stuff too).

The concave cutters are useful and fun to use, but quite expensive if you want something good. And if you work mostly with cheap/basic material or nusery stock, you are unlikely to need to do flush cuts right away. You can always leave a stub (should?) and come back later to remove the dead wood.

Repotting actually requires more tools than maintenance/cleanup/pruning. I have a pair of $5 robust scissors and a cheap bypass pruners reserved for root work.

My next purchases will probably be a spherical knob cutter and a good bypass pruner, along with a pair of bonsai tweezers (I think tweezers are underrated as far as usefulness goes).
No one should buy bonsai wire cutters. Get a pair of Knipex on Amazon. They’re more expensive than what you’ll find at Home Depot, but cheaper than bonsai tools. They’ll cut any wire you have. Your first pair of pliers (and most used) should be regular hardware pliers. Jin pliers aren’t necessary, though I still use them for certain tasks.
 

TN_Jim

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No one should buy bonsai wire cutters. Get a pair of Knipex on Amazon. They’re more expensive than what you’ll find at Home Depot, but cheaper than bonsai tools. They’ll cut any wire you have. Your first pair of pliers (and most used) should be regular hardware pliers. Jin pliers aren’t necessary, though I still use them for certain tasks.

Thanks for speaking up on this. I’ve thought the same and have little to back it up. I know electricians, phone, and IT cable running folks, and I see an array of cuts in their tools, but not....

So what is the purpose of bonsai wire cutters...I’m guessing the blunt apex does not gouge the tree, sure. The only advantage to this I see is REMOVING wire rapidly....that’s it.

—I’m at a point where I shouldn’t do this fast, and not sure I ever will want to. If it comes to that, grind down the point..?

Inverse: in wiring trees, it seems I’ve seen more elongate scissor-like wire cutters of all sorts used....perhaps/likely for speed as well.

Admittedly, I haven’t been chomping through thick gauges, but is that nessesary to physical approach (not gouging trees, precision, finesse) or more so the size/scale of wire cuts?

Also,,,too,,,when the wire bites, what then?

speed vs. versatility is my assertion, quality is a side discussion it seems...this is where the hand works less and the tool works more perhaps. ....but quality is found outside of bonsai wire cutters as well.

So, does the professional or anyone look like an ass or bring shame when removing wire with say, a pair of Milwaukee or Klein cuts?
 

PiñonJ

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Thanks for speaking up on this. I’ve thought the same and have little to back it up. I know electricians, phone, and IT cable running folks, and I see an array of cuts in their tools, but not....

So what is the purpose of bonsai wire cutters...I’m guessing the blunt apex does not gouge the tree, sure. The only advantage to this I see is REMOVING wire rapidly....that’s it.

—I’m at a point where I shouldn’t do this fast, and not sure I ever will want to. If it comes to that, grind down the point..?

Inverse: in wiring trees, it seems I’ve seen more elongate scissor-like wire cutters of all sorts used....perhaps/likely for speed as well.

Admittedly, I haven’t been chomping through thick gauges, but is that nessesary to physical approach (not gouging trees, precision, finesse) or more so the size/scale of wire cuts?

Also,,,too,,,when the wire bites, what then?

speed vs. versatility is my assertion, quality is a side discussion it seems...this is where the hand works less and the tool works more perhaps. ....but quality is found outside of bonsai wire cutters as well.

So, does the professional or anyone look like an ass or bring shame when removing wire with say, a pair of Milwaukee or Klein cuts?
This is the model I bought: https://www.amazon.com/Compact-Bolt-Wire-Hard-Cutter/dp/B0002YYMB2
It went up a few bucks since I got mine. It has blunt tips, so you can use it the same way as bonsai wire cutters, but it will handle any wire you have, including steel. You can get a knock-off at Home Depot, but it just doesn’t cut as well. With regard to wire cutting in, if it’s still shallow, you can use the wire cutters. If it’s deep, you have to carefully unwind it.
 

River's Edge

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No one should buy bonsai wire cutters. Get a pair of Knipex on Amazon. They’re more expensive than what you’ll find at Home Depot, but cheaper than bonsai tools. They’ll cut any wire you have. Your first pair of pliers (and most used) should be regular hardware pliers. Jin pliers aren’t necessary, though I still use them for certain tasks.
I like the Knipex for cutting larger diameter copper wire. (Easier on hands and wrists), kaneshin wire cutters for med copper and large diameter aluminum, and small white handled scissor style wire cutter for small diameter aluminum and very small diameter copper wire.
My point is simply this, if you do Bonsai full time and you work on a wide variety of materials then you learn to appreciate the differences in the design and application of a wide variety of tools. Knipex are bulky and heavy to hold and use if not needed for the task at hand. Larger trees can take several days to wire properly and involve the use of varying sizes and types of wire. I can hold the smaller wire cutters easily at the same time as unwinding small diameter. No need to keep setting down and picking up. It is no different than any other hobby or profession. Sure i can usually jury rig something with baling wire and duct tape if i have to, or get something apart with vice grips. There is usually more than one way to solve a task. Tools are very important to those who use them all the time, and understand the advantages and disadvantages of the individual designs and sizes.
I have no problem with those who are happy with a simpler, or as they perceive it a more cost effective approach. It depends on the amount of work one does and the type of material one works on. Clip and grow requires less for sure!
When advising others i think it is best to be clear on what works, as well as the motivation for the choices we make. I work on Bonsai full time, i want the tool that makes my job easier and the result better. Choice of style, size and application is important! Quality is important, good enough in my experience usually isn't. Replaced too many cheap tools. Broke too many trying to use them beyond their limits. What appears to work the same as something else often does not, resulting in unintended damage to the tree.
 

leatherback

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So what is the purpose of bonsai wire cutters.
If I look at mine, I fine they have a small head compared to the length of the tool. Allowing you to get deep into the canopy and still operate it. I would be keen to see whether the knipex tool can work there too?
 

PiñonJ

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If I look at mine, I fine they have a small head compared to the length of the tool. Allowing you to get deep into the canopy and still operate it. I would be keen to see whether the knipex tool can work there too?
I guess it depends how dense your canopy is. If you can’t get the Knipex in, you’re certainly not going to get a branch cutter in!;)
If all you have are shohin and mame trees, then a bonsai wire cutter will work fine.
 

TN_Jim

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If I look at mine, I fine they have a small head compared to the length of the tool. Allowing you to get deep into the canopy and still operate it. I would be keen to see whether the knipex tool can work there too?
Aah...nice, dig it.
 

Adair M

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The bonsai wire cutters are more compact, of course. But I was talking about branch cutters. The point being, if you have room to operate a decent sized pair of branch cutters, you have room for the Knipex.
RiversEdge said it all.

Piñon, I have spent days at a time wiring/unwiring trees. Trees of all shapes, sizes, and degrees of refinement. Trust me when I tell you that having quality purpose built tools can make your work less tedious, and more precise, especially when working with highly refined trees.

If I saw anyone trying to use those knipex wire cutters to remove wire from any of my trees, it would be the last time they would ever be allowed to even look at my trees! Would you want a surgeon to use a butcher knife to remove your appendix?
 

Cosmos

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If I saw anyone trying to use those knipex wire cutters to remove wire from any of my trees, it would be the last time they would ever be allowed to even look at my trees! Would you want a surgeon to use a butcher knife to remove your appendix?

You wouldn’t let Ryan Neil touch your trees? Ok then.
 

PiñonJ

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Does he use knipex wire cutters to remove wire?
It's the only kind of wire cutter he uses, when he does use cutters to remove wire. Don't knock 'em til you've tried 'em! The bonsai wire cutters I've seen online (and own) won't handle larger gauges and won't cut the steel wire I use to secure my trees in their pots. These do it all and they're just as gentle on the tree as bonsai cutters. But, as I stated previously, if the wire is dug in, I unwind it.

RiversEdge said it all.
I agree, which is why I 'liked' his post. But go back and read it again. He uses Knipex, but just for larger gauges, because they're easier. He uses smaller cutters for smaller gauges because he likes to keep them in his hand while he's working so he can use them on the fly and not have to keep picking them up and putting them down. I'm all for using the right tool for the job, which is why I bought these. The right tool isn't always labeled "bonsai."
 

TN_Jim

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No.

Does he use knipex wire cutters to remove wire?

I unspin the wire. Rarely use any cutters of any kind when removing wire. And then, only on the heaviest gauges: 8,6,4.

There’s a yt video of Adam L’s where he has a 5 gal. bucket full of unwound wire. A q&a thing perhaps??

He demonstrates how to straighten it by tightly pulling it back and fro (ala wire saw) against a stainless steel bench leg.

I was impressed by the conservation of resources and this technique.

Adair, it’s interesting to hear that you mostly remove rather than cut your wire, as I’ve come to trust you know what you’re doing. However, I’ve heard other cats say not to..wires hardened..

Still, I suppose it’s like with all things, the approach. Has there ever been a bull in a china shop? -sure but; Madrid, where are ya?

Thanks Johnathan for this interesting topic. Christmas is coming, and it’s important I tell Mrs. Claus exactly what’s up.
 

Adair M

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There’s a yt video of Adam L’s where he has a 5 gal. bucket full of unwound wire. A q&a thing perhaps??

He demonstrates how to straighten it by tightly pulling it back and fro (ala wire saw) against a stainless steel bench leg.

I was impressed by the conservation of resources and this technique.

Adair, it’s interesting to hear that you mostly remove rather than cut your wire, as I’ve come to trust you know what you’re doing. However, I’ve heard other cats say not to..wires hardened..

Still, I suppose it’s like with all things, the approach. Has there ever been a bull in a china shop? -sure but; Madrid, where are ya?

Thanks Johnathan for this interesting topic. Christmas is coming, and it’s important I tell Mrs. Claus exactly what’s up.
I have long been an advocate of unwinding wire rather than cutting it off. I was heavily flamed when I first suggested that it’s a better way. There’s a thread, I think it’s called “What’s it like to attend an Intensive” or something like that. Fun reading!

I unwind all the thin stuff, and only begin to use wire cutters at around gauge 8. Even then, I’ll usually unwind it some to get the wire away from the wood (bark), and then cut.

I use Jin pliers as leverage to unspin the wire.

I haven’t seen Adam’s wire straightening video. I suspect he uses aluminum. It’s easy to straighten: hold a pair of pliers in each hand. Grab the two ends of the wire, each plier holding one end. Then bring your hands together in front of your chest, and snap (jerk) your hands straight out wide to your sides. The wire should now be straight. Works with both copper and aluminum. Copper needs to be annealed again. Aluminum is good to go.

I’ve never used steel wire to secure a tree into a pot. I use aluminum for that. I use steel wire for guy wires sometimes. Mostly use copper for guy wires.

Ryan probably uses much heavier wire than I do on a regular basis wiring with yamadori junipers. I have a couple of those, but I tend to work with pines which “usually” don’t need super heavy wire. I generally don’t do the really big trees, I like the ones I can carry by myself. I also tend to work more highly refined trees which don’t need heavy wire. I use a lot of 12, 14, and 16 gauge wire. I have some 4, I’ve never used it. My bonsai wire cutters will cut 6, which I have used occasionally.

I’ve been doing bonsai for 50 years. I’ve got a lot of tools. I’ve bought them one at a time over the years. Some I’ve liked, some I haven’t.

I have found that the expensive Masakuni tools have lasted a long time. If you take care of them, they will last a lifetime. Other brands are good, too, but there’s something about the Masakunis that give them a good “feel”.

The key is to get familiar with your tools and learn how to use them properly. A great tool used improperly will yield poor results. While a marginal tool used expertly can give good results.
 

petegreg

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These are "all I need wire cutters".
IMG_20181122_142305.jpg
I use them all. Standard WC for the most of works. Long reach WC with a small head for areas not so easy to reach. And Knipex WC is my newest addition. I didn't feel good cutting thicker wires with Standard Kaneshin, I felt some unpleasant flex and was worried about damaging this great tool. They all have their limits.
 

ysrgrathe

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Most of my tools are white steel from kaneshin. A friend of mine ordered blue steel at the same time - there is no noticeable difference other than the prestige of the tradition and as Judy noted, the price tag!
I'm not sure it's worth the cost difference, but I'd note there is a difference, even if subtle -- I have chef knives in both white and blue. The blue holds a slightly sharper edge, but I prefer the white because blue seems to always impart a rust/iron flavor to delicate foods like apples or first. I've never noticed that with white.

btw these names come from the color of paper the ingots are wrapped in -- both are Hitachi tool steels.
 

Johnathan

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Sorry for taking so long to update, but here is what I went with for my initial starter tool set. Tweezers, Pliers, Round Concave, scissors, soil scoops (lol) and crean mate. Obviously, all from Kaneshin.

20190121_200456.jpg

Next will be to get some of those fancy Knipex wire cutters...... and I haven't even used these, but I'm already kicking myself for not getting an actual knob cutter. That'll be the next actual bonsai tool I purchase.

I also want to give a huge thank you to @Q-Bonsai ... I found out about Quyen from the people here on Bnut, and of course I like to work with the Nuts whenever possible. He was awesome to work with.

Thanks everyone for input and feedback, now I need someone to make a wiring video using pliers!!
 
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