Katie0317
Chumono
We just noticed brown tips on our brand new shohin Maple and have no idea what's causing it! Can anyone help please?
Brown tips on Trident leaves, Please help
- Thread starter Katie0317
- Start date
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
You might check for insects on the undersides of the leaves.
Katie0317
Chumono
Thank you Brian. It's the first thing we looked for.
The tree doesn't feel too wet or too dry but it looks very slightly droopy to me. I have no way of knowing when it was last fertilized but I'm wary of doing that if the tree isn't in top form.
Something's up but I'm not experienced at all in maples (and am only a year in on bonsai though have had some classes and workshops)...They don't focus on maples though. I've never seen a maple in a workshop.
So I'm new to bonsai and inexperienced. I appreciate your help and anyone who can help... I appreciate it.
The tree doesn't feel too wet or too dry but it looks very slightly droopy to me. I have no way of knowing when it was last fertilized but I'm wary of doing that if the tree isn't in top form.
Something's up but I'm not experienced at all in maples (and am only a year in on bonsai though have had some classes and workshops)...They don't focus on maples though. I've never seen a maple in a workshop.
So I'm new to bonsai and inexperienced. I appreciate your help and anyone who can help... I appreciate it.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Tridents can handle some heat, but their leaves can get a bit ratty, especially the tips if they dry out a little. It’s been in the upper 90s here, and I’ve been watering my full-sun tridents 3x a day when I can get to them. It’s tricky because transpiration slows down, so it’s almost better to a thorough watering in the AM, then do a “heavy mist” a couple times later each day later where you’re not watering until water runs through the pot, but you’re soaking the leaves, trunk, and soil surface. That way the roots aren’t sitting in soggy soil all night.
The tips circled in red look like desiccation, but you have new growth too so I wouldn’t worry. The margins and the mottled spots are different…these look like sucking insect damage, which usually hit from beneath. The margins could also be mechanical damage, from handling. Again, not much to worry about if the tree is still growing.
And FWIW, I’m still feeding very heavily right now, just reloaded cakes, and strong fish emulsion once or twice a week.
Good luck.
The tips circled in red look like desiccation, but you have new growth too so I wouldn’t worry. The margins and the mottled spots are different…these look like sucking insect damage, which usually hit from beneath. The margins could also be mechanical damage, from handling. Again, not much to worry about if the tree is still growing.
And FWIW, I’m still feeding very heavily right now, just reloaded cakes, and strong fish emulsion once or twice a week.
Good luck.
Katie0317
Chumono
Your watering technique is pretty much what we've been taught here in classes but I tend to be rather light-handed with the watering and my husband tends to water more the way you're describing.
I have not been watering the leaves and trunks though and you're suggesting I do when I water to cool them down in late afternoon?
I water the soil only in the morning and my husband uses a sprayer in the afternoon or the watering can like I do.
Have Bio Gold. Is that what you mean by the cakes? I have fish emulsion on hand but have never used it on bonsai. You think I should? Bio Gold too?
The tree had been lightly trimmed by David Cutchin or David Vanbuskirt. David C teaches for Mirai too but works full time at D&L nursery and will eventually own it.
So I feel certain it was in excellent condition when we brought it home just 2 weeks ago and it's really a nice tree by any standard.
I'll share your post with my husband and we'll talk about the watering. He just put up a large shade sail this weekend...A big job.
He had made it its own shade though first and I may put it back under that but this couldn't have happened in the last two days?
Thank you for sharing what insect damage looks like and I'll be on the lookout for that!
I very much appreciate your input. Thank you.
I have not been watering the leaves and trunks though and you're suggesting I do when I water to cool them down in late afternoon?
I water the soil only in the morning and my husband uses a sprayer in the afternoon or the watering can like I do.
Have Bio Gold. Is that what you mean by the cakes? I have fish emulsion on hand but have never used it on bonsai. You think I should? Bio Gold too?
The tree had been lightly trimmed by David Cutchin or David Vanbuskirt. David C teaches for Mirai too but works full time at D&L nursery and will eventually own it.
So I feel certain it was in excellent condition when we brought it home just 2 weeks ago and it's really a nice tree by any standard.
I'll share your post with my husband and we'll talk about the watering. He just put up a large shade sail this weekend...A big job.
He had made it its own shade though first and I may put it back under that but this couldn't have happened in the last two days?
Thank you for sharing what insect damage looks like and I'll be on the lookout for that!
I very much appreciate your input. Thank you.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I try to avoid fertilizer advice, but instead share what I do. I do use Biogold and make my own cakes with Plant Tone when I have time, and load up the trees every 3-4 weeks with more cakes. On top of that, I also mix a strong concentration of fish emulsion, like 1/4 cup+ in a 1.5 gallon watering can and water foliage and soil once or twice a week. My wife doesn’t appreciate the smell, and it attracts bees, so I do it in the evening, and then delay watering the next morning until necessary.
It only takes drying out once to damage the tips, so yes, it could have happened over a couple days. Shade cloth is fine, but the leaves may be larger and the internodes may be longer. While you’re still learning, that’s no big deal. When you want to enter shows, it will become important to shorten internodes and shrink leaves. That’s when precision pays off: good soil, perfect watering timing, careful pruning, but that’s for another day.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Getting to grips with shohin bonsai can be difficult. It took me years to perfect watering in order to keep smaller trees alive and healthy through our hot summers because smaller pots dry out so quick and are then hard to re-wet properly.
without being able to get closer, the symptoms and time of year point toward dehydration.
Trees that have not been repotted are especially at risk as the roots quickly fill all available spaces then it doesn't matter how well you water the pots just cannot hold enough water for the day.
We've already discussed water trays for smaller bonsai but I seem to recall you were not comfortable with the idea.
Like @Brian Van Fleet I'm resigned to some leaf damage through summer. Provided it does not affect tree health it seems to be just part of growing smaller trees.
without being able to get closer, the symptoms and time of year point toward dehydration.
Trees that have not been repotted are especially at risk as the roots quickly fill all available spaces then it doesn't matter how well you water the pots just cannot hold enough water for the day.
We've already discussed water trays for smaller bonsai but I seem to recall you were not comfortable with the idea.
Like @Brian Van Fleet I'm resigned to some leaf damage through summer. Provided it does not affect tree health it seems to be just part of growing smaller trees.
Katie0317
Chumono
All great advice.
When you use bio-gold how many cakes do you use on a shohin sized tree? I know one person uses x and and another uses y but I'm just asking how many cakes you use? Do you use teabags, bury them beneath the soil or just lay them on top? I don't want to start a fertilizer debate.
I got some Sumo cakes when I put in order there but they're dried out and have crumbled. I'm sure they're still good but I'm not going to use them on this tree. Otherwise, I have Osmocote Plus. I've heard some people say not to use that in the extreme heat of the south and to use them in other seasons here.
Thank you for your response as I know you're also experienced with Trident maples.
I have to tell you that using water trays in Florida is not effective. Any other member here who's been to Fl in the summer can tell you the humidity is sky high. A water tray would not help me.
I'm beginning to understand though what Brian was referring to with using a shade cloth and it interfering with ramification and leaf size. It had never crossed my mind until he mentioned it and I started thinking about it.
We do a heavy watering in the morning. Again around 1 pm and again in the late afternoon to cool them off. We have an automatic watering system and my husband can set it daily on mist. @Brian Van Fleet and @Shibui what do you think of setting an auto misting setting daily? Brian mentioned watering the leaves and trunk and we haven't been doing that.
Also, my teacher recommends using a systemic Bonide as a preventative for spider mites in July and August so we'll do the same.
We grow orchids and roses and have quite a few other gardens and I'm comfortable with fertilizer but for some reason I'm concerned of over doing it on bonsai trees. Probably because they're in a confined space. I bought Dyna-Gro liquid fertilizer and Bio Gold. I want to use the Bio Gold but can't determine how many cakes to use and where to put them. Any tips on that would be appreciated.
I think it is a watering issue also. In Florida the heat is brutal. We get a lot of rain but my teacher says to get a rain gage. He says unless we get a half inch he still waters.
Also, I'm reading about partially defoliating Tridents. Removing some of the larger leaves? I noticed @MACH5 just defoliated his pig and mine has a lot! of leaves. Why is beneficial to remove them by hand instead of using scissors? Is it necessary to remove the stem or just the leaf?
Thanks guys, any fertilizer specifics would be helpful. Just putting the biogold cake on top of the soil is concerning to me. Birds and squirrels etc.. I don't have tea bags handy but may order some.
This tree is really special to me and I'm committed to doing whatever it takes to do right by it. I appreciate the help.
When you use bio-gold how many cakes do you use on a shohin sized tree? I know one person uses x and and another uses y but I'm just asking how many cakes you use? Do you use teabags, bury them beneath the soil or just lay them on top? I don't want to start a fertilizer debate.
I got some Sumo cakes when I put in order there but they're dried out and have crumbled. I'm sure they're still good but I'm not going to use them on this tree. Otherwise, I have Osmocote Plus. I've heard some people say not to use that in the extreme heat of the south and to use them in other seasons here.
Shibui,
Thank you for your response as I know you're also experienced with Trident maples.
I have to tell you that using water trays in Florida is not effective. Any other member here who's been to Fl in the summer can tell you the humidity is sky high. A water tray would not help me.
I'm beginning to understand though what Brian was referring to with using a shade cloth and it interfering with ramification and leaf size. It had never crossed my mind until he mentioned it and I started thinking about it.
We do a heavy watering in the morning. Again around 1 pm and again in the late afternoon to cool them off. We have an automatic watering system and my husband can set it daily on mist. @Brian Van Fleet and @Shibui what do you think of setting an auto misting setting daily? Brian mentioned watering the leaves and trunk and we haven't been doing that.
Also, my teacher recommends using a systemic Bonide as a preventative for spider mites in July and August so we'll do the same.
We grow orchids and roses and have quite a few other gardens and I'm comfortable with fertilizer but for some reason I'm concerned of over doing it on bonsai trees. Probably because they're in a confined space. I bought Dyna-Gro liquid fertilizer and Bio Gold. I want to use the Bio Gold but can't determine how many cakes to use and where to put them. Any tips on that would be appreciated.
I think it is a watering issue also. In Florida the heat is brutal. We get a lot of rain but my teacher says to get a rain gage. He says unless we get a half inch he still waters.
Also, I'm reading about partially defoliating Tridents. Removing some of the larger leaves? I noticed @MACH5 just defoliated his pig and mine has a lot! of leaves. Why is beneficial to remove them by hand instead of using scissors? Is it necessary to remove the stem or just the leaf?
Thanks guys, any fertilizer specifics would be helpful. Just putting the biogold cake on top of the soil is concerning to me. Birds and squirrels etc.. I don't have tea bags handy but may order some.
This tree is really special to me and I'm committed to doing whatever it takes to do right by it. I appreciate the help.
Colorado
Masterpiece
I put the Biogold right on the surface. For a Shohin pot, you could use anywhere from 4 pellets to 10 pellets or so.
Here’s an example of what I would consider a “heavy” application:
The pellets are spaced maybe 1/2” apart, all around the pot. I wouldn’t really see any need to go any heavier than this. Could certainly go lighter. This was about a month ago and now the pellets are mostly degraded and time for another application.
Hope this helps!
Katie0317
Chumono
Brian, I went out to add fertilizer but couldn't get your comment about pests and the photo you circled on out of my head. I shook the Trident on my hand and two miniature black dots appeared. I knew it was spider mites. I used neem oil on the tree and then put in in the shade. I hope it will be okay. Thanks for taking the time to point out that one leaf. Hope it's not too late.
Katie0317
Chumono
Thank you! I would do a light application but this helps me a lot. I appreciate it.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
It should be just fine. Tridents are tough trees.
On fert cakes, I‘m along the lines shown by @Colorado … I load them up. Haven’t seen your full tree to know a good number.
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Hi Katie. Good question. There is no benefit to using your fingers over scissors. The end result is the same. I used fingers simply to expedite the process. When you have a large tree with perhaps a couple of thousand leaves, finger plucking can speed up the process. However, you have to be "light" with your fingers since you can inadvertently pull whole shoots or even branches in the process. If done correctly, you only pull the leaves off leaving the stems on the tree.
Katie0317
Chumono
Thank you Sergio. I appreciate it. I want to do right by this tree so I appreciate learning the correct way of thinning it and knowing to leave the stems is very helpful. I tend to work carefully so that shouldn't be an issue.
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Of course! Slow and careful is always wise in bonsai, especially if you are a bit less experienced
leatherback
The Treedeemer
can you show the whole tree?
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
These make pretty quick work of defoliating.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
The problem with recommendations is different climate, different soil type, different watering technique, etc, etc. My normal summer is hot and dry but my trees get by on a good soak morning and evening. It took some years to discover what a 'good soak' was though. Only after autopsies on many dead plants I learned that watering may not always reach the centre of the pot. I do water all trees overhead so that also wets leaves and trunks. Whether that's important in itself I can't say.
Misting leaves can cause stoma on leaves to close therefore reducing transpiration of water from the roots so misting may help a tree survive a hot day. I'm much more inclined to make sure the roots have access to plenty of water that can be supplied to the leaves and the tree can then regulate transpiration and self cooling. Not sure how effective misting would be in high humidity conditions.
You describe Florida heat as 'brutal' but I think that may be from a human comfort point of view as you also mention relatively low temperatures. High humidity make it difficult for us to perspire and cool ourselves so it feels hotter than it actually is. Summer temps here are much higher (on the thermometer) but more comfortable. Not sure whether the same factors apply to trees.
I have noted the same thing with regards to rain gauge. I realised that rain hits a leaf and runs down and out, drops onto a lower leaf and runs down and out and so on. For landscape trees we talk about the 'drip line' - literally where water hits the ground after running from leaf to leaf. In the garden that water still hits the ground where the tree's roots are. Our bonsai usually have a canopy that's wider than the pot so the canopy of leaves moves most of the rainwater out and drops it outside the pot. Result = pots stay dry except for heavier rainfalls. Like your teacher I'll still water pots unless we get more than about 1/4 inch of rain.
You've already had good responses on how to defoliate. After the leaf blade is gone the leaf stems fall naturally. Pulling leaf stems off can damage the dormant buds. I generally use the scissors to defoliate.
I rarely defoliate fully. I have 2 aims with defoliation of well established bonsai: allow light to inner leaves and shoots, otherwise most growth occurs on the outer edges and vital inner shoots can die off - take off enough larger, outer leaves to allow light to reach inner leaves; reduce strength of strong branches and encourage weaker ones - defoliate more in the upper canopy and on stronger branches but keep more leaves on weaker ones.
The last time I fully defoliated Japanese maples in summer they ended up with permanent damage from sunburnt bark on major branches. Inner leaves suddenly exposed to strong sun after partial defoliation can also burn but fortunately that's not permanent damage like the bark.
The confined space and different dynamics of pots and potting soil do make a difference for fertilizer. Organic products are rarely strong enough to cause toxicity which is why the others can pile them on without harm to the plants.
We don't have biogold here but I use poultry manure pellets in rotation with liquid fert. I just apply direct to the soil but because I also have controlled release in the soil and use liquid fert every 3-4 weeks I only put a few pellets at a time on a small pot. It does leave a residue so others apply it in a tea bag so the used sludge can be removed easier.
Katie0317
Chumono
Are you asking to see the tree right now or photos I took a few weeks ago? It doesn't look that different to me now.
My husband is the one who saw the tiniest of details on the maple. We're both working artists with very different ways of approaching projects and it didn't surprise me that he saw this when I didn't. He tends to examine each tree more throughly than I do. He called it to my attention as we have separate trees. I was alarmed and took photos to post here.
Am happy to share a photo if you like. I'll take a new one tomorrow or soon.
The workshops I attend are free to attend if you don't have trees you want to work on. A much older man was there every time we attended and he sat across the table from the teacher. He was never contrary but usually had a quiet opinion, story or idea that was interesting to hear. I knew he was more advanced than many of the students. It was him who became too unwell to care for all his trees and sold some back to the nursery. He's no longer able to attend the workshops. This was one of his trees.
Katie0317
Chumono
I've seen those for sale. I use these for snipping leaves on my roses. They're lightweight and sharp for a season or two.
These make pretty quick work of defoliating.
