Colander vs Terra Cotta?

[Maiden69]

I’ve had mixed results drilling extra holes with a regular masonry bit. It takes ages and always blows out the junk once it breaks through to the other side. Do you find the tile bit is the way to go?

I find that either the Bosch spade bit or the Milwaukee diamond bits are the best choice. You need a clean cut bit that won't chip the edge so the pot won't crack in the future.

 

[SeanS]

I find that either the Bosch spade bit or the Milwaukee diamond bits are the best choice. You need a clean cut bit that won't chip the edge so the pot won't crack in the future.

Are those the bits that look like little spears?

 

[Maiden69]

Glass and Tile Bits

(4PC) Glass and Tile Drill Bits | Milwaukee Tool

MILWAUKEE® 4PC Glass and Tile Drill Bit Set features exact start tips for minimal walking in glass and ceramic tiles with carbide for faster drilling

www.milwaukeetool.com

Diamond Max™ Hole Saws

www.milwaukeetool.com

 

[Pitoon]

I’ve had mixed results drilling extra holes with a regular masonry bit. It takes ages and always blows out the junk once it breaks through to the other side. Do you find the tile bit is the way to go?

When drilling or enlarging holes in pots I've found that carbide bits in a dremel work best. Masonry bits will work but can sometimes crank the pot or make chips at the hole. The carbide bits will grind the clay away giving more control.

These work well and I've used them....

Carbide bits

 

[JackHammer]

I find that either the Bosch spade bit or the Milwaukee diamond bits are the best choice. You need a clean cut bit that won't chip the edge so the pot won't crack in the future.

I didn't have a diamond bit but i had some masonry wheels for the angle grinder. The regular disks did ok, but not great. There was some chipping. The diamond disks did much better. Now the bottom of my pots look like they had a visit from Freddy Kruger.

The cobolt "hard metal" drill bits by Milwaukee didn't really do the job.

I need to pick up some of those glass/ceramic bits.

 

[Colorado]

I’ve had mixed results drilling extra holes with a regular masonry bit. It takes ages and always blows out the junk once it breaks through to the other side. Do you find the tile bit is the way to go?

Yes, it is incredibly easy. Takes about 10 seconds.

 

[Colorado]

11 dollars at Home Depot. These are much better than some of the others brands I have tried:

RYOBI SpeedLoad plus Carbide Hex Shank Glass/Tile Bit Set ( 4-Piece)-AR1650G - The Home Depot

RYOBI introduces the SpeedLoad+ 4-Piece Hex Shank Glass/Tile Bit Set. This set is a great choice for drilling through various thicknesses of glass and tile. The bits feature durable carbide tips for long

www.homedepot.com

 

[sorce]

This one I got from @VAFisher outlived the elm.

View attachment 380823

I thought it had a mark.



I think you'll have some that are always good, some that are sometimes good, and some that are never good.

They can be tested of anyone felt like getting scientific.

Outdoor Weather Resistant Ceramics

How can you be sure that the porosity of your fired ceramic ware is low enough to prevent freeze-thaw breakdown in the winter?

digitalfire.com

I'd be curious to learn the results.

Sorce

I realized today that was a different pot! It survived well too, but here's that mark.





Chicken head.

Sorce

 

[AnacortesSteve]

I bought 200 commercial air pots from a grower that were used once for $1 each, he had a ton and I found out he lives down the street. You can buy them new for about $3, these are #3 size

 

[pandacular]

Fake News! Not true in my experience. Uv is an issue after three years in my climate. Color change and more brittle. They cost $1 and serve their purpose until a larger size pond basket or an Anderson flat is needed. They do not cause roots to circle, they do air prune roots effectively! The caveat being that I am using inorganic free draining mix with all my containers. They do need carful watering due to the free drainage. You can get a better deal from the dollar store if you purchase by the case. The type I use come 48 per case and I have successfully used them for decades to raise pines. One year on the bench to establish root form and then set them for three years in the grow beds, Simple matter to cut off escaping roots and retain the core root ball. This method matches the seedling radial cutting process and develops even nebari from the outset. They are cheap, ugly and break down. But they work for their intended purpose which is to create better shape and type of roots from the outset to improve the overall outcome. ( assorted applications pictured below post
)View attachment 380307View attachment 380308View attachment 380309View attachment 380310View attachment 380311View attachment 380312View attachment 380313

For deeper root balls and longer periods of air pruning the pond baskets are an improvement over colanders. They also stand up better under UV, typical useful like of ten years in my experience. Higher cost so they are not a cheaper alternative than colanders. I use these primarily for species that need deeper substrate and benefit from a larger container. Examples would be Chojubai, Prunus Mume, Toyo Nishiki.
View attachment 380314
Terra cotta can be used but does hold more moisture and cracks if climate is colder. It helps to use terra cotta that has been produced with more care and higher temperatures. I have had best experience with " Deroma" brand from Italy. They also come in a more advantageous shape shorter and wider for developing bonsai root balls. Typically referred to as Azalea pots or bulb pots. Terra cotta must be watered carefully as they stay wet for much longer periods of time. Easily develop algae on the outside and keep the roots too wet unless allowed to dry out between waterings. Actually the terra cotta holds the moisture longer and the inorganic mix can dry out before the terra cotta making it difficult to judge water levels within the pot. I do not recommend them for pines for this reason. I prefer them for deciduous that are ok with more continuous damp conditions. Great for establishing dwarf maples, Azalea, Zelkova, hornbeam, persimmon. I find it best to drill additional drainage holes and cut slots to improve drainage in terra cotta
View attachment 380315
Anderson Flats have the disadvantage of drainage impeded when put on a flat non porous surface. best to drill a few holes low down on the side to allow drainage when placed on a solid surface. The alternative I choose is to set them on a rougher or slotted surface. Typically a larger size gravel base.
I find these ideal for Pines and also Maples due to their shape and size. Have to adjust the soil mix to retain appropriate levels of moisture for the species.
The side holes really help drainage and they can be nest for additional drainage in special situations.

View attachment 380317
Note: all of these containers are used for development purposes and I am not suggesting them as replacements for Bonsai pots once the trees are finishing development and entering refinement.

This thread was a great read, and this post in particular is perhaps the best summary I've found of various training pot options, with explanations of the advantages of and reasons to use each.

 

[hemmy]

Fixing broken link:

Terra Cotta vs. Colander – a Root Experiment with Japanese Black Pine

Is growing in colanders/pond baskets superior for Japanese Black Pine destined to be bonsai? Common bonsai knowledge says that the answer is yes, but I’ve seen growers get really good results from other containers. I set out to see what differences I might see between two different types of...

www.bonsaify.com

Phutu.com » Terra Cotta Vs. Colander – A small sample root experiment.

phutu.com

 

[hemmy]

Maybe I missed it but I was surprised that a distinction wasn’t made between colanders and perforated kitchen wash baskets. Eric’s description (old Phutu.com blog) calls them perforated blue baskets. These wash baskets are also what I see in pictures from Japan. Most colanders I see in stores have way less holes. I bought the 12.5” ones imported by the Thunder Group and sold online at kitchen wholesale sites. I’ve had then since 2021 and haven’t had any cracking or breaks.

But after searching then again, I see why @River's Edge might not use them. I paid $2.68 USD and now they over $5 EACH. Besides price and maybe durability, does anyone have reasons to like the less-holed colanders vs mesh baskets? Do the colanders retain more moisture for deciduous versus the mesh?

 

[Dogestoevsky]

I’ve been buying the blue wash baskets from a local Viet/Hmong grocer. Same brand as pictured above. In my experience they drain wonderfully, and still hold enough moisture for water-loving species like american larch.

I think they run about $3 a pop here. Not the cheapest option, but they haven’t broken down yet — been about 3 years of use.

 

[Maiden69]

Maybe I missed it but I was surprised that a distinction wasn’t made between colanders and perforated kitchen wash baskets.

Well, that's because almost 90% or more of the population calls them colanders. When was the last time that you heard someone in a kitchen say "hey, pass me the perforated wash basket"??? I have never used one of those fancy small hole colanders in my life. We either had the one pictured on your post, or the metal mesh ones. Still called both of them colanders.

Here's another twist for you, how about kitchen strainer? A search on google for that will bring you the same results as kitchen colander.

 

[hemmy]

Well, that's because almost 90% or more of the population calls them colanders. When was the last time that you heard someone in a kitchen say "hey, pass me the perforated wash basket"??? I have never used one of those fancy small hole colanders in my life. We either had the one pictured on your post, or the metal mesh ones. Still called both of them colanders.

Here's another twist for you, how about kitchen strainer? A search on google for that will bring you the same results as kitchen colander.

Well they are wrong! But I’ve never worked in a kitchen!



The funny part of the above is that none of those 3 describe the perforated wash basket (PWB). The blue ones have holes small enough to hold in my substrate but not fines. So to recap, plant your JPB in APL and in a PWB!

 

[Maiden69]

Like I said, I have never heard of that "perforated wash basket" till you posted, and I am (or consider myself) a cook. Also, the same strainer that is used for sifting flour is also use for filtering powdered sugar... I use it when making sugar frosting for cakes and for sprinkling powder sugar on baked goods, and the wife/kid waffles/crepes/pancakes... hell on every thing sweet they make me cook for them.

Anyway, I don't use those anymore for trees, I moved into Root Pouch bags which give me the same if not better results without having to worry about the roots drying out too much because of the wind. Also, a benefit is that you can saturate the particles with less water, as the bag restricts flow. With a colander or pond basket you have to water more for the entire root ball to soak water.

 

[hemmy]

I moved into Root Pouch bags which give me the same if not better results without having to worry about the roots drying out too much because of the wind.

If you get the ones with the Velcro flap, you could open it up to prune large roots without repotting!

 

[Maiden69]

If you get the ones with the Velcro flap, you could open it up to prune large roots without repotting!

Well, taking that as a joke it will still not work with the Root Pouch brand, the tips of the roots get pinched by the fabric, and funny though, when you cut the sides to peel the bag off it feels like velcro when you pull the fabric and the tip of the roots break off.

 

[hemmy]

Well, taking that as a joke it will still not work with the Root Pouch brand, the tips of the roots get pinched by the fabric, and funny though, when you cut the sides to peel the bag off it feels like velcro when you pull the fabric and the tip of the roots break off.

Just joking, .

I was using the Rootmaker gallon pouch bag that fit standing up in cinder blocks which was super convenient. The roots did escape through the seams to the ground sometimes but there were still fine roots in the pouch. But I stopped because on those small bags, I had to cut them off to removed them. There were so many roots adhered to the walls as you pointed out. I’m sure it’s easier on larger bags with room to get a tool down the side.

 

[Maiden69]

I was using the Rootmaker gallon pouch bag that fit standing up in cinder blocks which was super convenient.

Rootmaker is the only other brand I would recommend, but it is pricier than Root Pouch which is why I prefer it. They both prune by entrapment. They have 2 styles for the cinder blocks, I think the one you have is the "plastic" one that have the bigger holes? Or the fabric one?

My Root Pouch will have a few escape roots, but only at the seams in the bottom. Which I kinda welcome as they help anchor the trees and also provide some extra thickening.

This is what I find when I remove the bag from strong growing trees. I only had one root that evaded the fabric and thickened up. Right in front to the right side. Everything else was finer root development. But... I think that it was my fault as I didn't prepare the root ball well before placing the tree in the bag.




Completely different story with my JBP, no thick roots near the bar or circling at all.


My JBP kabudachi, this one was a pot in pot (or pot in colander), there is evidence of a few escape roots when I removed the pond basket, but the great thing was that none became overly big because they were air prune.


Pouch removed


The few roots that escaped are the ones that look thicker in this picture.