Composting for Bonsai? (Latest Podcast, Modern Soil Science - Mirai)

[Colorado]

Fair enough!

 

[bwaynef]

There's a lot more information out there to support what Ian was talking about, if you feel like reading.

 

[River's Edge]

There's a lot more information out there to support what Ian was talking about, if you feel like reading.

Agreed, i have noticed some very positive results combining organic components. one of the most obvious is the proliferation of mycorrhizae . I believe sometimes it is associated with a change or variation in substrate that creates a better environment as well. My favorite organic combination contains.
liquid fish fert, Neem Meal, Blood Meal and Bone Meal. At times i have also added liquid kelp fertilizer. It is difficult to calculate what the mix contains and control the dosage when it breaks down. But my trees seem happy! For inorganic i prefer Apex Plus, osmocote type with low numbers for NPK.

 

[fredman]

Given the fact that inorganic molecules and organic molecules are identical. Given the fact that all inorganic chemicals come from natural sources. And it is difficult to find any evidence that plants can tell the difference where the elements come from that they need.

This is all true and well known here by now. What I discovered is the scary fact that there's little to zero nutrition in the vegetables that's mass produced on sterile soil world wide (its not soil anymore really...its just dirt).
The plants get what they need to grow, but don't bring much to one eating it. Those plants are grown by chemical means. First the fertilizer, then the pesticide, herbicide and fungicide. It has to all be done in the plant's life cycle, because the plant has no means to fend for itself.
Vegetables that's grown organically on the other hand has all the nutrients ready for a body's uptake. That can only be achieved when you have the right microbes in the soil, and the best way the get them is compost and worm castings. They provide the neccesary nutrients to the plant. Those plants rarely need to be sprayed, simply because they have got the means to protect themselves against pests and deseases. In fact pests are only there to recycle sick or weakened plants.
The main reason why cancer, diabetes, mental illnesses etc etc has become epidemical lately, is because of nutrition...caused by chemicals. Food in the end, I discovered IS medicine.
I saw it first hand in the last two years in my household. The wife was diognosed with arthritis, even worse, the daughter developed a serious mental illness (depression and she went psycotic)....SCARY!!! Both of them went the "alternative medicine" way and saw a naturopath. She treated them both back to full health by the simplist of means... the right nutrition and supplements (actually more than that, but that was the most important) to get the body and mind back to a biological balance. The psychiatrists are only shaking their heads. Me, I dropped the carbs and sugar and watch what I eat. Lost 10kgs and all the aches and pains in the aging body has all but dissapeared...got energy to spare to.
What has all of this got to do with bonsai you ask...well for me...everything.
For me the same principle apply. I'm not interested in feeding a tree with chemicals, hoping its healthy and full of vitality. I'm interested in getting the right microbes in the soil and feed those right, so they can feed the tree so it can be as naturally strong and healthy it can be. That, simply put, is my goal from now on. Not that easy as its a whole new world really. I'll put to use all i've learnt in my organic vege garden and try and develop something that'll work for my bonsai trees.
Again its all about the microbes.
I'm making my own compost the right way to ensure I get the right microbes. I plan to set up a proper worm bin for the castings. Worm castings is what brings nutrition to food, and hopefully full vitality to the trees.
Come next spring i'm going to make a new organic openish soil and feed them (the microbes) compost tea, banana water, my homemade kelp and seaweed tea, comfrey extract, diluted seawater (80+ trace elements) etc etc etc....
There's less, (but enough) NPK but all the trace elements with the minors will be in abundance for them to flourish. That's the plan anyway. They'll probably grow slower but i'm good with that. I'll maybe also sacrifice some on developing finer splitting roots, but they'll still split and fill the pot, so again i'm happy with that.
What i'm happiest about is my bonsai shelves are free of any chemicals. Thrown them all away.

 

[Potsofgreen]

Lets be clear, they were talking about composting in order to make compost tea, to use as a supplement for promoting a healthy micro-biome in the soil. Not as a soil component. You can talk to Anthony about that though, I'm sure he will give you the run down on marbles as well.

The podcast episode was fantastic. Some of it was the two of them throwing around speculative ideas about how Ian's knowledge of soil science (NOT bonsai soil science lets be clear) could be applied to bonsai. But they are very clear about what was speculation and what was real tested science. I think a lot of what Ian observes in soil science in the fields of agriculture or horticulture has the potential to be applied to bonsai. The big takeaway for me was that when you're using organic fertilizers with more complex molecules that must break down... in essence you are really feeding the soil and the microbe community first which then makes the nutrients available to the plant. And how this approach can often create stronger, more disease resistance plants, as opposed to a purely miracle-grow fed plant. That was a light bulb moment for me, and really help me put into context why you would want to use organic ferts instead and how exactly they work.

Exactly, you feed the soil not the plant, I used to grow container grown um “lettuce” for years prior to getting into bonsai, I’ve also done farming I.e. full scale row crops and tree crops, and in all my horticulture practice I always feed the soil,

Once you have a good microbial herd going your growing feet above your competition, the plants prefer it, that’s why organic farmers use crop rotation, no till methods, cover crops and a bunch of other methods to make sure there land will stay fertile, now all of these methods CANNOT be applied to bonsai and I don’t advocate using powdered compost in mixes but I am a strong advocate of a good compost tea ?

 

[0soyoung]

Some science about the wonders of compost tea.

The Myth of Compost Tea
The Myth of Compost Tea Revisited
The Myth of Compost Tea - episode 3
Suppressing Seedling Damping Off
Vermicompost Tea Production and Plant Growth Impacts
Compost and Compost Tea:

There is an abundance of additional open-access semi-scientific and scientific publications on the pros/cons of compost teas.

 

[Ali Raza]

One thought on this. At the start of the podcast and also in the following live stream, Ryan indicated that he considered much of the discussion with Ian to
be "theoretical". I know I won't be going out and dousing all my trees with fish hydrolosates (or whatever it was) or home-made manure tea or bottled humic acid. I would
possibly test on small samples of experimental trees first (or wait for others to risk their collections).

That is something Clever I would say.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Oh I should add that another lightbulb moment for me from that podcast, relating to inorganic vs organic fertilizers, is that Ian talked about how inorganic fertilizers with just raw plant available n/p/k tend to feed the bacterial community and not the fungal community. He states that what is important for healthy soil is the ratio of bacterial biomass to fungal biomass. Yes you want bacteria in a healthy soil as well but as a much smaller part of that ratio. When feeding with miracle grow for example, the bacteria can readily use that nitrogen and so you end up with a bacteria dominated biome and little to no beneficial fungal activity. This can contribute to sick plants. Found this little nugget of information very illuminating.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What use is it to increase the microbiome if we're going to kill it with broad spectrum antibiotics anyways?
I see it happen quite a lot. And people seem to be oblivious about it.

 

[Forsoothe!]

his is a gross oversimplification. Ice molecules and liquid water molecules are also identical. Yet I have a hard time believing one could propagate a plant in a block of solid ice the same way one could propagate a cutting in water. This is just one example.

Oops! Miss-use of analogy, 15 yards and loss of down...

 

[Anthony]

Traditional use of fermented Oil seed meal gives NPK, micro
nutrients and adds compost to the soil.

A bit of fish emulsion is the booster.

For plants in Refinement in bonsai pots.

Adding tea bags is confusing, as you might be going back to
Hydroponics alla natural.

Compost tea no worky, worky.

Too much compost [ water holding capacity ] is also a problem.

Compost is also for improving soil texture.

Have never had to use Insecticides or Fungicides - read Rodale.
Read - Garden Myth

Growing tomatoes - Roma - for years, no cides.
Good Day
Anthony

**** Welcome to the Modern Practices ****(

 

[eryk2kartman]

There is a happy medium everywhere, there is a lot of good info from Ryan but i think he is a bit in ideal world
I used both organic and chemical fertilizers and they both work well.

And on top of that - this subject mainly applies to established trees that needs re-potting every 5 years or so,
I have mostly young pre-bonsail trees that i re-pot every year or 2 i dont think it makes too much difference, they getting new fresh soil each time.

 

[Anthony]

@eryk2kartman ,

very sensible.

This is why before we enter a plant for ground growing, it is
grown in a colander in our Bonsai soil mix.
Even with the thick roots, that evolve from trunk thickening,
removal within the colander, and a month or two extra in the
damaged colander, restores the fine feeder roots.

So root cutting can be done and no time is lost on recovery.

Since it is already in the Bonsai Soil mix, entry into an oversized
plastic bonsai pot for refinement is simple and easy.

As it goes the tree is always with a % of compost.
And 1/3 strength Miracle Gro is used as the fertiliser when refining.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Colorado]

Oops! Miss-use of analogy, 15 yards and loss of down...

Ha! I have no doubt that a competent scientist could identify numerous technical faults with the analogy.

But the larger point remains. And the larger point is that the organic vs. chem fert question is not as simple as “But...but...they both contain the same elements. So they must be the same thing.”

How about you enlighten us with a more sound analogy, smarty pants!

 

[RobertB]

I guess my initial thought here was more towards getting a good balance of micro-organisms in the soil to begin with. Its around the same basis as saving and adding some soil chunks, leftover from a repot with high amounts of mycorrhiza to other newly repotted trees.

Adding small amounts of sifted compost during the repot wouldn't be to necessarily fertilize the tree (although im sure it would to some point) but would simply help establish a good balance of micro-organisms within the pot.

 

[Forsoothe!]

@Colorado You're right. It's anything BUT simple.
As to fertilizers being equivalents, there are serious problems with speaking to the usefulness of Miracle-grow verses “compost tea”. One has a published analysis and the other is sort of maybe woulda coulda shoulda is something that might be, in my opinion, ~good~ for plants. Depending on what the meaning of is, is.

Yeah, both of them have NPK, and both are delivered as ~water soluble~, and both deliver NPK as compounds that plants can use as opposed to just delivering elements which only microbes and bacteria can use, but one is for sure { OHON + OHOP + OHOK } or something like that at the label values and the other one came from a pile with a prospective analysis of maybe if come we hope could be as high as 0.5-0.5-0.25, if we’re lucky and the right components went in there in the first place. Remember, GIGO. And also remember that the NPK in CP is usually tied up in compounds that don't migrate that easily out of the baggie into the stream of water, thence to the rocky mix below. Much will be bonded to the carbon fibers in the baggie that won't move, period.

Once again we are arguing apples and elephants. The compost tea may contain some microbes at fabulous rates, and some may make their way into the “bonsai soil”, but from a realistic view, how much? If there was rat hair, turds and fleas in there you might not even get Black Plague from handling it.

Compost tea is delivering a stain's worth of microbes and almost no NPK. I could fart on a plant and give it more. And, commercial liquids deliver specific goods, exactamente y muy pronto.

There’s a lot of speculating goin’ on here about what’s in what. Depending on what the meaning of what is.

 

[Cajunrider]

Clearly there is an imminent need for bonsai to be 'Certified Organic'.

A new criterion for entry into an exhibition?

You have to be certified or at least certifiable?

 

[amatbrewer]

Remember, GIGO.

Isn't compost one of the only times that GIGO explicitly does not apply? In fact it is almost the inverse.
Sorry, but I just could not resist an attempt at injecting a bit of humor.

 

[coh]

Oh I should add that another lightbulb moment for me from that podcast, relating to inorganic vs organic fertilizers, is that Ian talked about how inorganic fertilizers with just raw plant available n/p/k tend to feed the bacterial community and not the fungal community. He states that what is important for healthy soil is the ratio of bacterial biomass to fungal biomass. Yes you want bacteria in a healthy soil as well but as a much smaller part of that ratio. When feeding with miracle grow for example, the bacteria can readily use that nitrogen and so you end up with a bacteria dominated biome and little to no beneficial fungal activity. This can contribute to sick plants. Found this little nugget of information very illuminating.

That was a very interesting aspect of the discussion. The counter argument is, what about the folks who've been using lousy soils (think turface-based) with liquid inorganic ferts for years and decades and have
healthy vigorous trees.

When I first started bonsai I was using turface-based soils and inorganic ferts exclusively. I still found massive fungal/myco colonies in root systems when repotting. I've since moved to Boon-type mix and use both inorganics and organics and don't see much difference in the root systems when I repot. Overall my trees seem healthier but how do you partition the reasons for that...how much might be due to soil, how much to fertilizer, how much to the fact that I know how to water better and have a better grasp on timing of pruning, repotting, etc.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

That was a very interesting aspect of the discussion. The counter argument is, what about the folks who've been using lousy soils (think turface-based) with liquid inorganic ferts for years and decades and have
healthy vigorous trees.

When I first started bonsai I was using turface-based soils and inorganic ferts exclusively. I still found massive fungal/myco colonies in root systems when repotting. I've since moved to Boon-type mix and use both inorganics and organics and don't see much difference in the root systems when I repot. Overall my trees seem healthier but how do you partition the reasons for that...how much might be due to soil, how much to fertilizer, how much to the fact that I know how to water better and have a better grasp on timing of pruning, repotting, etc.

Yes exactly. Bottom line is, Ian’s background in soil science is in the context of agriculture and horticulture, not bonsai. I don’t think their conversation was as much trying to prove that you can’t do bonsai this way (Inorganic ferts) as much as exploring the possible untapped potential of organics and Humic acid etc.

I used miracle grow all season two years ago. I used organic ferts all season last year with 2 or 3 doses of miracle grow over the whole season. I was much happier with the growth I got last year, but I don’t think that’s necessarily saying much about if one is better or worse.

If anything organics felt like a lot less work though with better results based on that one season. Being that I didn’t have to mix up miracle grow on a weekly basis and could just fill up tea bags while there was still snow on the ground and they just continue to feed over weeks. Whereas miracle grow will wash out of my soil relatively quickly it seems. With organics I can kind of “set it and forget it”?

I know (if I’m remembering correctly) that Bill V uses both organic and inorganic, just hammers the trees, and obviously he knows what he’s doing!!! It would be interesting to see if Ryan Neil and Ian do actually set up some statistically significant tests on some of this stuff. The conversation seemed to suggest they might be headed that direction.

For my deciduous trees in development, I can’t help but think that trying really hard to establish a fungal presence in the soil may just be a waste of time when i’m Repotting them every year or two! As with most things in bonsai, there’s usually more that one right answer.