Composting for Bonsai? (Latest Podcast, Modern Soil Science - Mirai)

[coh]

I know (if I’m remembering correctly) that Bill V uses both organic and inorganic, just hammers the trees, and obviously he knows what he’s doing!

I think that is correct, not sure which he uses (it might be miracle gro or miracid or some combo) but he's shown me the miracle gro siphon feeders he uses. And of course Walter Pall uses "whatever is on sale" at very high doses and his trees look pretty good!

I just get a little concerned about brewing up home-made compost tea and applying it to my trees. It's been a while since I've really read up on it, but I seem to recall that if you're not careful you can wind up with a compost pile that has bad things growing in it (if you don't get the ratios and temperatrure right, for example). Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly and it's not such a big deal.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I think that is correct, not sure which he uses (it might be miracle gro or miracid or some combo) but he's shown me the miracle gro siphon feeders he uses. And of course Walter Pall uses "whatever is on sale" at very high doses and his trees look pretty good!

I just get a little concerned about brewing up home-made compost tea and applying it to my trees. It's been a while since I've really read up on it, but I seem to recall that if you're not careful you can wind up with a compost pile that has bad things growing in it (if you don't get the ratios and temperatrure right, for example). Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly and it's not such a big deal.

No, I think you’re right. In the podcast they talked about having to very carefully monitor the temperature of the compost over time to make sure you’re killing all the bad stuff. I mean, that’s a lot of extra curricular work right there lol. Gonna pass on that for now, though I might give Humic acid a try. I know that a certain someone on this forum raves about it.

 

[Anthony]

You know all of this is going to need visual proof.

AND as always, cultivars are what make the difference.

So Sifu [ Adair ] was showing his zelkova at 12 inches.
I just looked through a Bonsai Today 51 -page 14
So dense that it can at times block the dark background.

Down here we have 5 different types of Chlorophora t.
Only one can become similiar to a zelkova.
Now looking for a branch sport.

What matters is how healthy you can keep a cultivar.
Even if you are growing it in styro balls and plastic beads
and can Design.
Good Day
Anthony

Bnut please forgive -
BT 51
pg.14
zelkova serrata 9 onches [ 23 cm ]

 

[Colorado]

Miracle-grow verses “compost tea”. If there was rat hair, turds and fleas in there you might not even get Black Plague from handling it.
Compost tea is delivering a stain's worth of microbes and almost no NPK. I could fart on a plant and give it more. And, commercial liquids deliver specific goods, exactamente y muy pronto.[/QUOTE].

Nice deflection. This gave me quite a laugh ?.

No one is suggesting that all fertilizer should be replaced with compost/tea. If you would have listened to the podcast then you’d understand. They were suggesting compost as more of a supplement (to foster the microbial environment and proper ratio of fungi to bacteria) to organic fertilizer, i.e. fish, kelp, humic acid

 

[Forsoothe!]

Isn't compost one of the only times that GIGO explicitly does not apply? In fact it is almost the inverse.
Sorry, but I just could not resist an attempt at injecting a bit of humor.

In fact, if it isn't put in there it won't appear at the end of the cycyle. Magic not withstanding

 

[fredman]

I just get a little concerned about brewing up home-made compost tea and applying it to my trees. It's been a while since I've really read up on it, but I seem to recall that if you're not careful you can wind up with a compost pile that has bad things growing in it (if you don't get the ratios and temperature right, for example). Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly and it's not such a big deal.

Yeah there's piles and there's piles. A foolproof pile is a slower (cold) one....mimicking what happens in nature. When a pile is built in the appropriate proportions of carbon to nitrogen layers, and moisture is kept like a wrung out sponge, nothing can go wrong, and nature does the rest....ensuring the right microbes is in the right proportions. The only reason the hot plies are used, is because its faster, but that brings with it some risks.

 

[Forsoothe!]

As with most things in bonsai, there’s usually more that one right answer.

Yes , we should all include as a given that there are some people successfully growing trees with every conceivable combination now, and for a long time, too. And, at the same time, we need to keep in mind that we have declines and deaths periodically that are remarkable because it happens for no apparent reason. And that's still going to be operative in any "controlled study" of one system verses another. The weather can vary wildly from year-to-year, and so can timing of our actions, routine and extraordinary, -a little early here, a lttle late there. How do you control for the unknowables? First, you need to reduce the number of variables to a thinkable number. Think about the logs that would have to be kept, the data being dependent upon weather and micro-climates of two or more yards. It boggles the mind. That's exactly why these kinds of studies can only be pursued in a lab setting.

Think about comparing my outcomes, skills and superior intelligence with some of you schlumps out there. Is there anything more subjective than me looking at my obviously superior trees, and your obvious embarrassments and reaching that self-fulfilling conclusion? We don't need no stinkin' studies, we'd kill each other the first week.

 

[Forsoothe!]

No one is suggesting that all fertilizer should be replaced with compost/tea. If you would have listened to the podcast

Keep your eyes open and many people on this here blog will steadfastly assert that all organic baggies and oilseed(?) cakes all the time beats inorganic with their eyes closed. And the perverse, too. Actually, there are lots of closed eyes hereabouts...

 

[TN_Jim]

Keep your eyes open and many people on this here blog will steadfastly assert that all organic baggies and oilseed(?) cakes all the time beats inorganic with their eyes closed. And the perverse, too. Actually, there are lots of closed eyes hereabouts...

“The pile of shit has a thousand eyes.”
Steven King -The Body

 

[Anthony]

Just like another Bnutter, reported on attempts to slow down a branch's
thickening by autumn removal of leaves.
So too a totally inorganic soil, with just the right amount of fertiliser
will slow down a tree, but maybe keep it alive.

Compost would be more of an attempt at the Tree's Health.
A more modern approach - Tree Hugging.

Down here we got around the out growing the Design, by using
a generalised design and the idea of 3 to 5 years of preparing for
an exhibition.

Say you start learning with a formal.
Ground grow for trunk / root / and our 6 branches.
Then shift to a large container for refinement of branchlets and
so on.

We could do the same with our gravel and red brick wth no
compost, using soy bean meal and fish emulsion.

The confusion is when you don't know what Design you want
How to start.
So you begin with the wrong soil mix.
Good Day
Anthony

* when a tree needs more compost, we simply sprinkle
on a teaspoon or two.
Waters in rapidly.

 

[Colorado]

Keep your eyes open and many people on this here blog will steadfastly assert that all organic baggies and oilseed(?) cakes all the time beats inorganic with their eyes closed. And the perverse, too. Actually, there are lots of closed eyes hereabouts...

You’re conflating “organic fertilizer” with “compost.”

 

[wireme]

I think that is correct, not sure which he uses (it might be miracle gro or miracid or some combo) but he's shown me the miracle gro siphon feeders he uses. And of course Walter Pall uses "whatever is on sale" at very high doses and his trees look pretty good!

I just get a little concerned about brewing up home-made compost tea and applying it to my trees. It's been a while since I've really read up on it, but I seem to recall that if you're not careful you can wind up with a compost pile that has bad things growing in it (if you don't get the ratios and temperatrure right, for example). Maybe I'm not remembering that correctly and it's not such a big deal.

Hey I was brewing up compost tea for my bonsai, fertilizing with fish, kelp, humates more than ten years ago for the same reasons it sounds like they are discussing. (Probably, didn’t listen to podcast yet).

But you are right compost teas can be dangerous. The fellow who taught me how to brew them has done years of testing. When his company started they went straight to testing results of compost tea applications in an orchard expecting to see increased disease resistance, growth etc. Well, the initial results seemed to indicate they were harming trees, some even died apparently.
So then they changed gears and just started testing microbial populations in the teas themselves. This was all aerated and brewed teas not just soaked. So, the ingredients used had a big effect, brewer design as well, brewing duration, equipment sanitization practices between brewing was huge. If you know well enough what you are doing you can have reasonable expectations of expanding target groups of organisms. You can make a high fungal brew or high in bacteria or protozoa etc. If you keep it aerobic enough you probably won’t have too many pathogens.

If you’re just winging it and hoping for the best then it’s much more of a gamble. You don’t really need to make compost if you have access to healthy forest land, just collect forest litter, activate it for a couple days and brew it with ingredients that will explode the microbial population.

I didn’t believe it’s needed though, just introduce a little native soil maybe and have at least a little high carbon material (charcoal, bark, coir, etc) as a stable food source for some microbes to stay alive between fertilizer applications and when food is available away they go reproducing like mad, taking stuff in, holding it till they die, eating each other and releasing nutrients...

 

[Forsoothe!]

You’re conflating “organic fertilizer” with “compost.”

Perhaps. But when someone sez they feed with organic, they very rarely, if ever, state the analysis. It's very hard to discuss specifics without the specifics, which I suppose doesn't matter because the two extremes don't believe each other anyway.
A sizable percentage of us use both, and like both, and use organics for the microbes and inorganics for specific NPK.

 

[Anthony]

A start -
http://wildwillowfarm.sandiegoroots.org/uploads/4/6/8/5/4685977/cof.pdf

http://www.lundproduce.com/N-P-K-Value-of-Everything.html

courtesy MichaelS
flowers - 3.2 N 0.55 P 5.0 K

Our Leuceana leaves are unusual, almost the same as rabbit poop.

Texas University says compost gives NPK for 4 years.

With the ability to hold 20 times it's weight in water [ think liquid fertiliser ]
imagine how little you use in your mix .
You can adjust for low humidity / high humidity zones.
Good Day
Anthony

*using the lazy man's technique for composting - 10 x 10 feet built
3 to 4 feet high in layers and left to decay.
A year later, sifters and a hoe to pull at the base.

Then off to a covered barrel, just moist, so weed seeds can germinate
in the dark and die.

 

[bwaynef]

Perhaps. But when someone sez they feed with organic, they very rarely, if ever, state the analysis. It's very hard to discuss specifics without the specifics, which I suppose doesn't matter because the two extremes don't believe each other anyway.
A sizable percentage of us use both, and like both, and use organics for the microbes and inorganics for specific NPK.

Interestingly, from my research, those who use inorganics for specific NPK might be doing so to the detriment of their microbes.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Interestingly, from my research, those who use inorganics for specific NPK might be doing so to the detriment of their microbes.

Boo Hiss. The trick, if we want to use technical terms, is to use everything in moderation. That means supplying what the plant is using, and not trying to force growth by feeding it like it was a football player bulking-up for the big game. Balance the needs of moderate growth verses forcing it to get big, quickly. Bonsai is an endeavor for the rest of your life, so take your time...

 

[Forsoothe!]

@Anthony I'd sure like to see some of them trees that you guys have to reign-in the growth of.... This isn't a challenge, just not many of us growing tropicals 2000 miles north of their northerly range would like to see the real thing. Please?

 

[Anthony]

But Forsoothe,

all you have to do with Ficus p. is extend a branch anywhere
to 3 feet and the trunk thickens to an inch and this is
in a 1 inch deep pot.

Also we grow to 3 inch trunks to get a balance for 15 inch tall
trees.
Won't happen in a 1 inch deep pot.

So what should one do ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Sure, no problem,
[remember - Archives lots of pre-posted images]

Here is the premium image.

found the first ficus p. as a thin whip growing in the sheathe
of a coconut, flowering covering.
Tried to grow - out of hand



another attempt
3 foot extension - should be 2013




What it ended up as - 2018

soil mix 5 mm silica based gravel 9 parts
1 part aged compost
[ for this year 2019 base was sawn off to re lower into pot ]

 

[bwaynef]

Boo Hiss. The trick, if we want to use technical terms, is to use everything in moderation. That means supplying what the plant is using, and not trying to force growth by feeding it like it was a football player bulking-up for the big game. Balance the needs of moderate growth verses forcing it to get big, quickly. Bonsai is an endeavor for the rest of your life, so take your time...

High levels of nitrogen and phosphorus (which remains in the soil for years even if its not available to the plant directly, meaning its VERY easy to apply chemical fertilizers that will provide too much phosphorus in the soil for a long time) prevent colonization of mycorrhizal fungi, and make the environment inhospitable to bacteria. I don't see how what I've quoted in this post above has anything to do with my comment that you booed and hissed at.