deciduous branch structure

[catfish chapstick]

I started learning about bonsai in 2005 and now, 8 years later, I am still struggling to understand how exactly to structure a deciduous tree.

I heard Ryan Neil say in a critique say that deciduous trees branch upwards and out, implying if the bonsai doesn't do this it's trying to look like a pine. I have seen the deciduous bonsai that are structured like a pine with horizontal branches and triangular foliage so I know what he means kind of, but when I am out looking at old deciduous trees I have noticed that they don't always grow branches reaching upwards and out. I passed a tree today that was very old and looked very much like it would have been a nice bonsai if it were shrunken. The branches and trunk were a bit contorted and generally emerged horizontally. I started observing the branches of other old trees and it appeared that they were more than capable of going in any direction as well as displaying lots of movement. I also feel like trees in nature are rarely as compact as people try to design bonsai to be.

Can anyone give me any insight or examples. I don't want to be sold on the idea of creating fantasy trees, I want my future trees to look like realistic trees. Am I thinking about this all wrong? Have I missed the point of bonsai somehow?

 

[fredtruck]

I think your observations are correct. Up and out sounds like a broom.

I also like your photography on your blog. Very nice.

 

[Attila Soos]

There is no particular rule for deciduous branch structure. Unlike with the conifers, where a more or less tight foliage pad is a must, in order for the tree to look good, deciduous bonsai has a wide latitude of styles to choose from. So, you have to decide what your taste is.


It you want more natural, you can go with something like this. You still need positive and negative spaces, so you need to create concentrated areas of branches, alternating with empty spaces. But these positive areas don't have to be flat pads. Rather something that resembles a loose broom, the outdoor variety.

 

[RichKid]

Well I actually am a tree guy. Meaning I work in the tree removal/trimming business. I've been doing that for a few years and I have been in, trimmed, removed, etc lots of different tree species, some deciduous some coniferous and the one thing that I found about a lot of bonsaist perception of what a tree really looks like is based in fantasy like you stated. I too, do not like the idea of the fantasy trees, the "sumo" trees, etc. But to each his own. I much more prefer the natural or realistic looking bonsais. Again, thats just my personal preference. As far as deciduous branch structure, it depends on what you mean. When we discuss trees at work, we talk about what would be "branches" in different terms. You have "leads" which are the big branches that come directly off of the trunk from what we call "branches" come off of. From the "branches" you have the tips, which we sometimes call twigs. As far as growth patterns, leads usually grow up and out. I've rarely seed different, although I have. Honestly, I'm hard pressed to recalling seeing anything different with conifers. As far as branches, they can grow in ANY direction, although our job is to trim/remove those that are growing in undesirable ways, when we are called to trim and thin trees. Again, twigs can also grow any direction. This is just my experience after years of trimming, climbing and removing trees that have not been in pots and are sometimes over 100ft tall. Branches grow however they want. People ask to have them trimmed in a certain direction.

 

[Attila Soos]

On the other hand, if you prefer something more formal and structured, you can do this.
The way you achieve this, is that you initially create a flat pad (so that you have a "skeleton" to build on), and then you let the pads over-grow, making sure that the angle of the over-growing branches point out and upward (not straight up), in a 45 degree.

I remember John Naka saying something like this: "you tidy up the pads, and then you mess them up again, to look natural".

 

[catfish chapstick]

I think your observations are correct. Up and out sounds like a broom.

I also like your photography on your blog. Very nice.

Thank you!

There is no particular rule for deciduous branch structure. Unlike with the conifers, where a more or less tight foliage pad is a must, in order for the tree to look good, deciduous bonsai has a wide latitude of styles to choose from. So, you have to decide what your taste is.


It you want more natural, you can go with something like this. You still need positive and negative spaces, so you need to create concentrated areas of branches, alternating with empty spaces. But these positive areas don't have to be flat pads. Rather something that resembles a loose broom, the outdoor variety.

Thank you, that does help. I was getting the impression that it mostly comes down to personal taste. Those examples look very natural.

 

[Attila Soos]

And finally, if you want to go even more structured with the pads, you can do this.
These still look good, you need to create domed pads, with some of the primary branches growing upward first.

As a general rule, when you work with deciduous trees, you need some primary (thick) branches to grow upward, as opposed to growing side-ways, or even downward, as in the case of conifers.

 

[catfish chapstick]

On the other hand, if you prefer something more formal and structured, you can do this.
The way you achieve this, is that you initially create a flat pad (so that you have a "skeleton" to build on), and then you let the pads over-grow, making sure that the angle of the over-growing branches point out and upward (not straight up), in a 45 degree.

I remember John Naka saying something like this: "you tidy up the pads, and then you mess them up again, to look natural".

This makes a lot of sense. This I can visualize.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Well I actually am a tree guy. Meaning I work in the tree removal/trimming business. I've been doing that for a few years and I have been in, trimmed, removed, etc lots of different tree species, some deciduous some coniferous and the one thing that I found about a lot of bonsaist perception of what a tree really looks like is based in fantasy like you stated. I too, do not like the idea of the fantasy trees, the "sumo" trees, etc. But to each his own. I much more prefer the natural or realistic looking bonsais. Again, thats just my personal preference. As far as deciduous branch structure, it depends on what you mean. When we discuss trees at work, we talk about what would be "branches" in different terms. You have "leads" which are the big branches that come directly off of the trunk from what we call "branches" come off of. From the "branches" you have the tips, which we sometimes call twigs. As far as growth patterns, leads usually grow up and out. I've rarely seed different, although I have. Honestly, I'm hard pressed to recalling seeing anything different with conifers. As far as branches, they can grow in ANY direction, although our job is to trim/remove those that are growing in undesirable ways, when we are called to trim and thin trees. Again, twigs can also grow any direction. This is just my experience after years of trimming, climbing and removing trees that have not been in pots and are sometimes over 100ft tall. Branches grow however they want. People ask to have them trimmed in a certain direction.

I know what you mean. I often look at real trees and think "what a nice image of a tree, except that one strangely positioned branch that really draws your eye toward it"

So, in your opinion, is the aesthetic of trimming real trees a lot different than bonsai?
I feel like they should merge somehow.

 

[Attila Soos]

There is also a species-specific aspect of deciduous design, but only certain species qualify for this.

Prunus mume
You would NEVER create nice pads on a Japanese apricot (Prunus mume, or "Ume"). An Ume always has to look natural. Always, there is no exception (see my first series of pictures).

Gingko biloba
No flat pads on a gingko. That would be beyond bad taste.

Japanese quince
They have to look like a natural broom, with some negative spaces.

There are other expamples as well.
In general, bonsai guidelines are more or less flexible, but there is not much flexibility when it comes to the above species. For these, naturalness is a must.

 

[Poink88]

Depends on what you want to do. Bonsai (for me) is a romanticized version of real trees. There is no way to create a proportionately small tree like the real so exaggeration & expression has become an integral part of bonsai. It is an art to some.

The best way is to observe real OLD trees. All of the ones I've seen normally fall under the fan shaped dome. Branches on the top-center are more vertical and as you go go lower, the angle also goes down until some are actually horizontal or even pointing downwards. The branches also droop eventually the farther you go out. This is a GENERAL observation and applies to most but there are exceptions. I am also not saying they have to be straight because they rarely are.

This "guideline" does not just apply to the tree as a whole but can be applied for each branch. Some will be lopsided due to its location on the tree or proximity to light competition so adjust accordingly.

I too prefer naturalistic looking trees but I deal with what I have and use it's "features" to the best my abilities let me.

 

[Attila Soos]

Branches on the top-center are more vertical and as you go go lower, the angle also goes down until some are actually horizontal or even pointing downwards. The branches also droop eventually the farther you go out. This is a GENERAL observation and applies to most but there are exceptions. I am also not saying they have to be straight because they rarely are.

Very good observation.

 

[jquast]

I usually go to this blog page for inspiration for wiring/branch structure for my deciduous trees. It has lots of really nice close up photos of ramification.

jeff

http://samedge.wordpress.com/2010/12/03/incredible-nebari/

 

[lordy]

Go to Walter Pall's website. He follows the philosophy that bonsai should mimic nature in terms of outline form. He would not generally shape a deciduous tree in the conifer triangle because, in his way of thinking, that is not something you see in nature. However, in nature you dont see too many slanting, or cascades, mother-daughter, or sumo styles, etc.
So, in bonsai we try to create something pleasing that takes advantage of the characteristics of a given tree and exaggerate what will make for a nice or even dramatic characterization (or caricature?) of a tree. This is the 'art' part. Sometimes artists take artistic license and make something that you may never see in nature. Never having been much of a conformist, I'm fine with that.

 

[RichKid]

I know what you mean. I often look at real trees and think "what a nice image of a tree, except that one strangely positioned branch that really draws your eye toward it"

So, in your opinion, is the aesthetic of trimming real trees a lot different than bonsai?
I feel like they should merge somehow.

It depends on what kind of trim job you're doing. I think trimming for aesthetics is a lot like bonsai, except most people do not want their trees as thinned out as a bonsai. Sometimes we just trim for the health of the tree which is a little different. I couldn't say anything for certain, because I am BY NO MEANS a bonsai expert! LOL I'm a novice, who really got into this after falling in love with trees and tree work. I wanted to try to create minute versions of the trees I loved. From what I do know, there is definitely a point where the profession and the hobby meet. I doubt you will ever see a "sumo" in anyones yard or in the wild, but some of the trees that have been posted on this thread so far would make wonderful landscape specimens.

 

[rockm]

Do what looks good to you. Don't style a tree just because Walter Pall or Kimura or your local instructor says you have to do it their way. Borrow from all of them. Understand WHY you're borrowing and how to use it. Placing branches on a tree is alot like choosing which strokes ot use in a painting. Slavery to "natural" design is as bad as slavery to the Japanese green triangle. Bonsai is NOT about replicating trees in nature. It is about interpreting nature through human eyes. Bonsai is personal esthetics expressed through nature imagery...

And FWIW, Nature can be a very, very bad artist from a human perspective. She's pretty hit and miss. I mean not all of nature is picturesque. Nature doesn't give a damn what a tree looks like. Humans do. Do what humans like.

 

[october]

I think Attila did the best thing by posting those pics. We learn a lot just by seeing. This is one of the reasons why it takes 2 - 3 years to at least get the basics of bonsai down. We view thousands and thousands of trees over the years. As a result, our minds put together principles of aesthetics. It is only after looking at countless bonsai in real life and in pictures that it all starts to make sense.

Rob

 

[GrimLore]

I think Attila did the best thing by posting those pics. We learn a lot just by seeing. This is one of the reasons why it takes 2 - 3 years to at least get the basics of bonsai down. We view thousands and thousands of trees over the years. As a result, our minds put together principles of aesthetics. It is only after looking at countless bonsai in real life and in pictures that it all starts to make sense.

Rob

Or it just blends into some mindless set of the same old... I am for the artistic/natural looks. As a note - Walter has a awesome Elm he takes everywhere to show. It has NEVER won a place but one of the "best" I have ever seen. I agree - all said and done this is a great experience - but it is also a personal art

 

[jk_lewis]

For typical silhouettes of trees, take a look at Petrides' A Field Guide to Trees and Shrubs which has a section devoted to that. They are pictures of trees as they would (or might) look growing by themselves in the open. Keep in mind that trees "in nature" will be a LOT messier, with odd and broken branches, etc.

Here is an example:

 

[october]

Or it just blends into some mindless set of the same old... I am for the artistic/natural looks. As a note - Walter has a awesome Elm he takes everywhere to show. It has NEVER won a place but one of the "best" I have ever seen. I agree - all said and done this is a great experience - but it is also a personal art

It is true.. There are many takes.. In my opinion, I like the traditional, so to speak. The whole cookie cutter or themse such as first branch, second branch, back branch, side, front branch and apex is very appealing to me. However, like you said about Walters Elm. For me, it is Walter's naturalistic Pine. I love that tree. It looks so much like a full size tree in nature. If you didn't see the pot, you would not be able to tell it was a bonsai. I can appreciate both. That style and the unusual yamadori shaped pines. However, I also love every one of the Japanese pines with the before mentioned perfect branch placement with everything in place. All depends on the tree.

Rob