Deciduous yamadori in the US

[Andrew Robson]

Andrew... I don't dislike you...quite the contrary as Sawgrass suggests...we need passion like yours in bonsai... I damn sure wouldn't waste my time posting to you if I didn't see your potential...

However, it really seems like you are missing/ignoring the point...

Several times now I have asked you to be original...to share YOUR experiences, successes, failures, etc... to add to the collective knowledge...

Instead...

you seem to think we have all been living in a hole. That we don't read, that we all need to be professionals in the world of bonsai, that its cool to be a name dropping, spoiled brat...and I strongly suspect that the truth is you don't even care for trees on a daily basis...do you???

Its kind of like this buddy....you can read 1000 books or blog posts or whatever on how to ride a bike...but you still can't actually ride a bike until you get on one and ride it.... your posts, always referring to someone else's work, techniques, experience etc..., make you come across as a reader and not a doer... (my definition of an Internet Bonsai Master)

All I have tried to convey to you is that you need to be a doer...then folks might be willing to take your advice and offer you some respect. Respect is earned by what you do, not by who you parrot or what you own, or who you know!

Hi John,

Thank you for clarifying. I have shared my experiences on this forum, but I also share information that others (people I greatly respect) share. I'm still very much a student in bonsai, and I admit that. Why preach my own teachings when I still have so much to learn?

Currently, I do not care for trees on a daily basis, but I certainly have in the past. I live in a graduate student hall (dorm) at Yale, and don't have any outdoor space. I keep several trees at John Kirby's house, and frequently go work on them and his trees to keep my hands dirty. Most of my trees are at home with my dad, and I work on them whenever I visit. When I started out, I cared for trees on a daily basis for several years (and we only lost 5 trees total out of our 60 tree collection). I've also spent just about every summer back at home caring for them on a daily basis. I don't know why you think I don't work on trees much, I work with Boon and Michael 3 times a year each! Also I work on trees with John K quite a bit. I don't work on trees everyday, and certainly not as much as I want, but I'm not just sitting here on the computer doing nothing.

I see bonsai as 80% technique (or craft as Adair puts it) and 20% art. In my opinion, you can't have the art without solid technique. Although there are some different schoolings on techniques, most schools are generally consistent on a lot of information, like decandling for example. I still have a lot to learn with technique. I already said next year I plan on pursuing bonsai on a whole new level with a professional I greatly respect, but we're not ready to announce anything at this time. More on that in a few months. When I go to study with that person everyday, I'm going to keep my mouth shut about my own ideas and parrot everything that they do. After all, I'm not going to study with them because I think I know all the answers and need to express my own ideas.

Finally, I don't appreciate being called a spoiled brat. I thankfully earned a full scholarship (merit based) to my currently graduate program at Yale, or else I wouldn't have been able to afford graduate school. Yes, I have extremely supportive parents that do more for me than they should, but I certainly don't see myself as a spoiled brat. I work hard to make my own money, and I use a lot of that on bonsai. Does my dad buy a lot of bonsai related things? Yes he does. We purchased a beautiful RMJ from Randy Knight at the Artisans Cup. I wouldn't have been able to afford it without him, but bonsai is just as much his passion as it is mine. I do purchase trees on my own, like the larch I'm going to show at the National Show next year.

Hopefully one day we can meet and grab a beer to discuss our different approach to bonsai! I look forward to that day!

Cheers!

 

[Andrew Robson]

JohnG,

Andrew is a classical musician. Many classical musicians don't write music, just perform. Oh, I'm sure they had to do some composition in their studies, but their focus is on performance. Performance of others "creation" of music. Now, each performer brings something personal into each performance they make.

Two performers can "interpret" a Mozart concerto entirely differently. Yes, they play the same notes. In the same rhythm. Yet, they sound different! How can this be? It's what each performer brings to their craft.

Is playing Mozart "Cookie Cutter"? I don't think so. To play Mozart well, demands excellent technique. If your technique is poor, trying to play Mozart will not be pretty!

To bring this to bonsai, the part of bonsai I like the most is the "craft" part, the techniques, more than the "art" of bonsai. Others obviously prefer the art over technique. I don't think there a right or wrong here, just a different approach.

As I have said before, bonsai can be enjoyed on many levels. Some like to collect. Others prefer using nursery material. Some like to take raw stock and "create" bonsai. Others like to take existing bonsai and take them to the next level of refinement. Some like to do all the above.

We can't all be Mozarts and write music. We need performers, too.

Thank you Adair! You understand me completely!!!

 

[Andrew Robson]

Back to this thread, I have been proven wrong about there being nice collected deciduous trees. I gladly admit that I was wrong about that. I see now that these trees are out there, the water elm is a perfect example.

However, I still hold true to my opinion that deciduous trees are multigenerational trees, and take much longer to develop than conifers. Personally I enjoy trees that are highly refined like they are in Japan, so to my eye American trees still have a lot of work to do. I definitely think we should be using American deciduous trees, and I'm starting several out myself.

Can't wait to see the future of American deciduous trees, collected and grown! There is so much potential!

Cheers!

 

[jk_lewis]

If you're looking for natural dwarfs along nature trails in national parks, you also might want to keep an eye out for bigfoot, a unicorn or a chupacabra. You have equal chances of finding all of those.

And don't forget the gun-toting park ranger.

 

[jk_lewis]

However, I still hold true to my opinion that deciduous trees are multigenerational trees, and take much longer to develop than conifers.

I'm happy for you, but that's not true, either. Sorry.

 

[johng]

Back to this thread, I have been proven wrong about there being nice collected deciduous trees. I gladly admit that I was wrong about that. I see now that these trees are out there, the water elm is a perfect example.

However, I still hold true to my opinion that deciduous trees are multigenerational trees, and take much longer to develop than conifers. Personally I enjoy trees that are highly refined like they are in Japan, so to my eye American trees still have a lot of work to do. I definitely think we should be using American deciduous trees, and I'm starting several out myself.

Can't wait to see the future of American deciduous trees, collected and grown! There is so much potential!

Cheers!

Thank you Andrew... That is the kind of post that is helpful and non-offensive to others...

I am glad you are going to have the opportunity to study with someone...that is awesome! After that experience, you will have the technical knowledge and experience to truly offer something of your own to the bonsai community!

Technical knowledge is learnable by most and typically not too difficult...artistic talent is a different story...focus on the art!! The artistic side is certainly my weakest area and something I wish had more of... You can't make world class trees without technical skill, artistic talent, and good material

Would love to sit down with you and talk...see you at the next Nationals!

 

[johng]

I'm happy for you, but that's not true, either. Sorry.

its ok Jim...he just forgot to include "highly refined" deciduous trees...

 

[Andrew Legg]

Man....if you let your phone change likes to licks.....it really comes out worse!

I know you're joking.....but......I'm a Cadi "Fanboy".....be nice!

Sorce

Well she is Cadilac taste or something, so I assume she licks 'em. How else would one taste 'em. Anyhow, the autocorrect hits my "I've" for some reason. . I'll get over it one day. Horrible is not my modus operandi, but troll . . . . . . seriously . . . . . . . I'm gutted.

 

[sorce]

. How else would one taste 'em.

Lololol.

Now I get it.....fu@ker!
You got me!

Sorce

 

[Andrew Legg]

Lololol.

Now I get it.....fu@ker!
You got me!

Sorce

And there you were gettin all emotional. How touching. I bet you're just a big ol softy.

 

[augustine]

It would be a mortal sin to cut and regrow the branches on the referenced elm, fabulous tree.

It's true most collected trees don't meet all of the requirements on the "bonsai checklist" and that's true for collected conifers as well as deciduous. However I feel that the natural features can compensate.

I get to go collecting with my club here in Central Maryland. We collect primarily Carolina hornbeam, beech and wild blueberry but there are others species. Beech are problematic due to large foliage but some of us keep trying.

The group knows that our collected trees are not "perfect" according to the rules of bonsai but I feel there's so much more than the rules. They possess such beautiful trunks, foliage and exhibit both strength and grace.

I'll tell you a secret. We got to hang out with Andy Smith during the ABS Symposium in MD this past June and he loved our chunky blueberries. So much so that he took one home by trading with one of my bonsai buddies. (And yes, he traded a collected Ponderosa pine for one of our native blueberries.)

We know our collected trees may not be perfect according to the rules but they possess a "perfection" of their own. Many here know what I mean.

Best to all and Merry Christmas,

Augustine

 

[coh]

I would love to find a blueberry with a decent trunk.

 

[michaelj]

Ja right. That chick who licks Cadilacs even banned me as a troll! A troll I tell you. I' expectations been in counseling ever since! The viciousness.

A vicious Cadillac-licking troll banner? Well, she sounds hideous.

 

[Walter Pall]

Here a much better photograph of the elm. In Asheville the tree was second on my list for best of show. Only the RMJ beat it. In my critique I recommended to turn the wounds into very deep holes and make the holes partailly a bit bigger and at the same time irregular so that they look like ancient wounds which were done by nature. This is totally forgbidden by Japanese tradition. If the bonsai scene in America does not overcome this extremely one-sided view there will never be many good broadleaved trees in the country.

 

[Arcto]

One place I sometimes find good material for collecting are areas that are occasionally field mowed. Kind of periodic crude trunk chops going on. Of course, checking the legality is necessary. The Nat. Forest I collect from does not allow collecting within 300 ft of a road. This means I leave saliva smears on my window when I drive by some roadside banks that have been cut back. @ Andrew Legg, I hereby nominate you for the funniest post of this thread.

 

[michaelj]

The trick in finding worthwhile deciduous trees is looking for them in places like Jim mentions.
...If you're looking for natural dwarfs along nature trails in national parks, you also might want to keep an eye out for bigfoot, a unicorn or a chupacabra. You have equal chances of finding all of those.

I gotta disagree. I've seen many really great ones, right along hiking trails. Some really amazing instant shohin, some really great larger junipers and pines, or course, but also dwarf rugged little oaks, elms, all sorts of great deciduous trees. "Wish I had a shovel and permit" is my most commonly uttered phrase when walking in the national parks. My wife is sick of hearing it already.

And don't forget the gun-toting park ranger.

Yeah, that's the thing that keeps me from snagging them. One gun-toting park ranger and his citation book, or worse, his cuffs and back seat, could cost me a lot more than those gorgeous little trees are worth.

 

[M. Frary]

Ja right. That chick who licks Cadilacs even banned me as a troll! A troll

Ja right. That chick who licks Cadilacs even banned me as a troll! A troll I tell you. I' expectations been in counseling ever since! The viciousness.

Sound mad,like a little kid that is being ignored.
I think it's funny.

 

[Vin]

I would love to find a blueberry with a decent trunk.

So,,, the story goes like this: I'm at the local Mom & Pop about two years ago looking for something interesting to work on. I stumble across these three hybrid blueberry bushes with (and I'm not joking) 3" - 4" trunks and 6" - 8" nebaris. The trunks were all twisted with shari and jins (naturally). Trying to maintain my cool I asked if they were for sale. The answer was yes and no. They were given to the nursery owner to see how well they would do in north Florida by a grower. He was to keep them for a number of years and could sell them when the grower was happy that they would do well in our zone. The nursery owner said I could have first pick when he sells them and they would be $75 each. Well, this year was the year he could sell them so in the spring I went down to check and see if I could still get them. They were gone! I looked everywhere and couldn't find any sign of them. I asked the owner where they were and he said the grower asked for them back so he had to give them to him.

 

[Vin]

So who's going to start a "Non-Coniferous Evergreen Yamadori in the U.S." Thread?

 

[M. Frary]

So who's going to start a "Non-Coniferous Evergreen Yamadori in the U.S." Thread?

Not it!