Developing trunk/nebari simultaneously?

[Hobbes]

I was reading an old thread the other day and someone recommended planting a young tree in the ground to grow out the trunk. What was different to me was that he said to plant it on a tile at the same time to thicken the trunk and develop the nebari at the same time. Is this generally faster than working on the trunk and nebari separately or would it somewhat slow their growth? It would seem to me that if this was the faster way, people would have caught on by now and it would be the normal recommendation, but this one instance was the only time I've seen this method. Thanks!

 

[aml1014]

I've read that method quite a few times. Another, is to just plant the tree normally and every 2-5 years (depending on species), work the roots. The tile method just helps make horizontal roots which is what we want in bonsai.
What I'll be doing for some maples and elms I'm growing out will be to screw them to a plywood board that is about 16" square and I'll plant that into a 18"×18"×6" deep grow box. I will repot every other year and I will direct the roots with screws. Also known as, the ebihara technique, give it a search here on the forum there's a great thread about it.

Aaron

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It's not so much that you are "working" on the nebari. Rather, you are making sure you aren't creating nebari problems NOW that you have to correct down the road.

If you plant a tree in the ground to thicken the trunk, odds are that it will shoot running roots as deep as it can as fast as it can. Plant it on a tile, and the roots will spread to the edge of the tile, and then shoot down. Later, when you remove the tree, you can trim the roots back to the edge of the tile, and you have a good start on your nebari. It won't be perfect, but you'll be years ahead, particularly if you use a large tile.

 

[Eric Group]

I was reading an old thread the other day and someone recommended planting a young tree in the ground to grow out the trunk. What was different to me was that he said to plant it on a tile at the same time to thicken the trunk and develop the nebari at the same time. Is this generally faster than working on the trunk and nebari separately or would it somewhat slow their growth? It would seem to me that if this was the faster way, people would have caught on by now and it would be the normal recommendation, but this one instance was the only time I've seen this method. Thanks!

It pretty much is the normal recommendation. All sorts of options have been described here and else where- from planting on tiles/ boards in the ground to doing so in "grow bags", planting through holes in tiles to layer the tree on top if it, all the way up to the Ebihara technique where you plant in a board and pin the roots into the exact place you want them... it is one of the most common recommendations, and simply produces better results than leaving a tree to grow deep roots in the ground or into a deep pot.

 

[Hobbes]

Thanks guys. BonsaiNut your first comment really cleared it up for me. Aml I already read the thread on the ebihara method, and that somehow pointed me to the other thread that combined the two ideas. Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll be doing a box like you for some and ground for hardier things. My initial grow out plan was to plant in ground to thicken the trunk, then move onto the ebihara. I'll definitely be combining them now though!

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Always an option to plant in ground, make a trunk, airlayer for good distribution of roots, then do Ebihara. Often, even on a tile you will have uneven growth of roots, so be careful!

 

[sorce]

Always an option to plant in ground, make a trunk, airlayer for good distribution of roots, then do Ebihara. Often, even on a tile you will have uneven growth of roots, so be careful!

I like this...

Because you have to know when to give up on a shit base and airlayer.
No matter how often/well you tend the roots, there is always the possibility of a rogue root...especially in the ground.

I put 3 seedling elms through a washer this spring, they grew ok....
I have dug down to the washer and removed high roots 3 Times, and still only have one root on the washer, which may be too big by next year.

It should be noted....
That anything redirecting the roots outward will stretch the base of your trunk. So it kind of adds to trunk thickening, if just the bottom.
But for a super sumo, that could be all your taper.

Colanders minimize rogue roots.

But it's all species dependant.

Sorce

 

[Hobbes]

Awesome info folks, thanks. Being new to bonsai and horticulture in general, I dont know that I'd want to take on layering in my first trees.

Could I do a trunk chop on a maple (rubrum) at the same time as planting it into a grow out box over tile? Or would that be too much stress for one season and need to be spread out over two springs?

 

[Hobbes]

It should be noted....
That anything redirecting the roots outward will stretch the base of your trunk. So it kind of adds to trunk thickening, if just the bottom.
But for a super sumo, that could be all your taper.

Good point, I'm way too new to ever think of that.

 

[aml1014]

Awesome info folks, thanks. Being new to bonsai and horticulture in general, I dont know that I'd want to take on layering in my first trees.

Could I do a trunk chop on a maple (rubrum) at the same time as planting it into a grow out box over tile? Or would that be too much stress for one season and need to be spread out over two springs?

Just make sure to do it in spring before bud burst and the tree will be fine.

Aaron

 

[sorce]

Could I do a trunk chop on a maple (rubrum) at the same time as planting it into a grow out box over tile? Or would that be too much stress for one season and need to be spread out over two springs?

It CAN be ok.

But it seems a bit impossible.

A rubrum trunk that is ready for a chop (6-8in wide),will likely have roots too thick to tile up. But scratch tile unless your growing through it.
I'd always screw it onto wood.

Sounds like a situation where airlayer should be considered.

Florida or Winsconsin?

It matters cuz....
You could chop the top and bottom off the rubrum.... and board it up.
But in Winsconsin, the chop might rot before it closes.
In Florida....no problem..

Up here....
I'd like to have a branch already in place for a new leader, to get a boost on healing, and root growth.

Don't be afraid to layer....especially in Florida!
Learn on any crap you can find!

Get to killing some trees!

Sorce

 

[Hobbes]

It CAN be ok.

But it seems a bit impossible.

A rubrum trunk that is ready for a chop (6-8in wide),will likely have roots too thick to tile up. But scratch tile unless your growing through it.
I'd always screw it onto wood.

----I had actually planned on wood. I never really looked into tile so I assumed it was the same approach, just different material. Now I know haha! Why would you say a 6-8" diameter? It's 2.5" now and I was planning on 2-3' for this maple.

Sounds like a situation where airlayer should be considered.

----If it's not a worry like people are saying here, I could give it a shot.

Florida or Winsconsin?

----Green Bay, WI. Any work would be done in spring. Tree will be wintered in garage hence the grow out box.

It matters cuz....
You could chop the top and bottom off the rubrum.... and board it up.
But in Winsconsin, the chop might rot before it closes.
In Florida....no problem..

----In this case I will split up the work over two seasons.

Up here....
I'd like to have a branch already in place for a new leader, to get a boost on healing, and root growth.

Don't be afraid to layer....especially in Florida!
Learn on any crap you can find!

Get to killing some trees!

Sorce

 

[Hobbes]

New to this layout, my previous reply did not go as planneed haha.


I had actually planned on wood. I never really looked into tile so I assumed it was the same approach, just different material. Now I know haha! Why would you say a 6-8" diameter? It's 2.5" now and I was planning on 2-3' for this maple.

If it's not a worry like people are saying here, I could give it a shot.


----Green Bay, WI. Any work would be done in spring. Tree will be wintered in garage hence the grow out box.


----In this case I will split up the work over two seasons


Thanks for the help!

 

[aml1014]

New to this layout, my previous reply did not go as planneed haha.


I had actually planned on wood. I never really looked into tile so I assumed it was the same approach, just different material. Now I know haha! Why would you say a 6-8" diameter? It's 2.5" now and I was planning on 2-3' for this maple.

If it's not a worry like people are saying here, I could give it a shot.


----Green Bay, WI. Any work would be done in spring. Tree will be wintered in garage hence the grow out box.


----In this case I will split up the work over two seasons


Thanks for the help!

He always recommends big trunk for trees with large foliage and internodes, but I'd be to impatient lol

Aaron

 

[Hobbes]

From my reading so far, I've gotten the impression that the trunk will continue to thicken after a chop, just more slowly. Is that correct? I'm also going be the scales that the trunk thickness should be between (just off the top of my head though) 1/6th and 1/15th the height depending on style and species?

I've been doing so much reading lately that I can't remember where I read that. I can however say that all the sites I've been going to have been recommended by people these forums...

Thanks!

 

[sorce]

When the tree is a new seedling with a true terminal bud, and it is growing well...
I consider that 100% trunk thickening.

As soon as you cut the terminal bud, that 100% is gone.

A drastic chop to nothing...
Is like 2%, maybe 5%.

I say 6-8inches because without grafting other foliage on it, it's the only way to keep the leaf size in proportion.

This is important, because the naysayers must be silenced!

If we rock Acer Redrum, Redrum Redrum, we have to do it right.

Sorce

 

[aml1014]

From my reading so far, I've gotten the impression that the trunk will continue to thicken after a chop, just more slowly. Is that correct? I'm also going be the scales that the trunk thickness should be between (just off the top of my head though) 1/6th and 1/15th the height depending on style and species?

I've been doing so much reading lately that I can't remember where I read that. I can however say that all the sites I've been going to have been recommended by people these forums...

Thanks!

Big monster trunks are cool and all but I do prefer a little bit more naturalism in my trees. I have quite a few that fall in to the 1/6 ratio but I ten to have more in that 1/10 ratio, it just looks nicer to me. I even have a few that are 1/1.5 and I like them, but they are kinda grotesque.
Once you chop, the lower trunk will thicken, but so slowly that it'll not really be noticed. Only once the new trunk leader has reached the same thickness, will the lower trunk start to thicken considerably again. Grow the trunk until you have the thickness you want, then chop.

Aaron

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Could I do a trunk chop on a maple (rubrum) at the same time as planting it into a grow out box over tile? Or would that be too much stress for one season and need to be spread out over two springs?

It is best to keep your abuses to one per year Mess with roots, don't do anything too dramatic with the top. Chop the top, leave the roots alone. This is a general rule-of-thumb, of course, What you are suggesting is not impossible (from the perspective of the health of the tree) but if you mess with roots AND chop the the tree you are really reducing the tree's ability to respond strongly. Assuming it survives, it will take longer to recover, and recover more weakly. On some really strong species (like Chinese Elm) the difference won't be that major, but some other species won't put up with the abuse, or you may get some substantial die-back, or else they pout and only grow very weakly for several years.

 

[MACH5]

I've been growing specifically maples in the ground for a while. In my experience, what I found to be a good approach and yielded best results is doing a combo of both. Meaning, I let the tree grow for a few years without cutting back. Every 4 years or so I take it out of the ground and thoroughly work the tree but cutting roots and prune back the top where necessary to avoid reverse taper and such. It is important that the top is allowed to grow unrestricted for at least a few years. In order to gain any significant thickening of the trunk, one must let the top grow several feet up. Constantly cutting back the top slows down the process quite a bit.

Here is one example of a shohin maple I grew in the ground. Now potted in a wooden box to start the next stage of building a canopy.

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/japanese-maple-from-my-growing-bed.22689/

 

[Hobbes]

Awesome info everyone, thanks again for the help. I think I'll repot into a growout box and plant onto a piece of wood next spring. Then reassess the chop or air layer the following spring.