Do we underestimate trees' intelligence sometimes? Overwintering and breaking-buds season

Graft

Shohin
Messages
382
Reaction score
460
Location
Yorkshire
USDA Zone
8b
You can switch out conscious for intelligent in my statement. But feel free to enlighten me about what is meant here by intelligence, @leatherback :)
I don't think consciousness or intelligence are the correct words to use. I don't know, maybe instinct is a better one. But with billions of years of evolution I don't think that we are yet equipped to fully understand how plants really are able to do some of these things.
 

Rivian

Chumono
Messages
871
Reaction score
715
Location
DE
USDA Zone
6
I don't think consciousness or intelligence are the correct words to use. I don't know, maybe instinct is a better one. But with billions of years of evolution I don't think that we are yet equipped to fully understand how plants really are able to do some of these things.
Yeah as I said in my second post, its as if they were smart, or smartly designed. They react to things in ways we dont fully understand. And they have millions of years of natural selection behind them
 

Cadillactaste

Neagari Gal
Messages
16,263
Reaction score
20,887
Location
NE Ohio: zone 4 (USA) lake microclimate
USDA Zone
5b
You bring it upon yourself. I suppose we all do to a greater or lesser degree. Almost all of my plants stay outside and take care of themselves. I do have a number of tropicals though. But this thread has already taken a path away from what I believe was the intent of the OP.
Am I the only one who covers their landscape to protect flowers from frost?

Depends on ones location. I had frost crack damage severe on a landscape weeping cherry...in JULY.

Mother nature can toss us curve balls.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,383
Reaction score
15,855
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Trees do not have a brain.
Research shows that the roots of a tree are the brain and that intelligence extends through every cell of the plant. To try to explain this to nearly anyone who has not studied it extensively is like trying to explain Christmas to a headhunter on Borneo.
Intelligence is not a byproduct of the brain regardless. The brain is a byproduct of the inherit nature of intelligence that exists in everything. Consciousness is all that truly exists.
I don't expect converts here and I will not expand on a subject that I am not capable of explaining when there are dozens (probably hundreds) of good sources for this information, not a book or three. Plant intelligence studies have been part of my life for most of my life and I am not yet capable to explain it susinctly, nor will I ever be.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
When we were in our second of 3 large snow dumps last month, I saw some Robin's playing about in the snow gusts.
Next day or so the dog started shedding, though my first thought was, a new winter coat. The snow made it seem as if there was no way spring was actually close.

Point is, we don't even look at the signs offered to us when we get them, we keep looking at the trees, looking for buds to tell us when it is spring.

We get our information from them.

So which is more intelligent?

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
Wow, you can tell from that one little snippet all about the author and the wisdom of an entire chapter?

It is not your shoulder that can tell when winter is coming, but your brain. Trees do not have a brain.
The pain in the shoulder is not caused by the brain, it's a signal that the brain gets. I may or may not interpret the pain as an indication of this or that weather coming or going. It was a facetious statement, a reflection upon a real, well-known phenomenon that people with joint or old injury problems know well, that changes in weather are notoriously announced by additional pain. Some people, like you, are too poorly educated to know about these things, so people like me have to tell you about them. For the people who knew about this old saw, it was a funny. Too bad morons like you just can't pass up an opportunity to shame or cancel someone. That's another mission of mine: shoot your mouth off, and I'll set you straight. Your turn, moron.
 

BonsaiMatt

Shohin
Messages
251
Reaction score
829
Location
Maryland
USDA Zone
7a
Yes, trees are remarkably intelligent.

They have a 'built in' diurnal clock, even when kept under 24 hour light. I did an experiment in school where I kept oaks under 24 hour artificial light, and they continued to show a daily pattern in their photosynthesis, transpiration, and isoprene emissions. Do they 'remember' that the sun is supposed to rise and set every day? Maybe so... 😉

On winter dormancy, for the hardcore nerds in the chat:

'A Conceptual Framework for Winter Dormancy in Deciduous Trees'
Screenshot_20210317-190340_1616022293458.jpg

Figure 3. Conceptual framework of winter dormancy in deciduous trees. The dormancy framework (gray background) indicates three main phases: (a) dormancy
establishment (light gray), (b) endo-dormancy (dark gray), and (c) eco-dormancy (medium gray). For each phase (a–c), the dormancy-related physiological processes
are represented by colored shapes and numbers (0 to 4). These processes are (0) the regulatory module CONSTANS (CO) /FLOWERING LOCUS T (FT) (green
square), (1) the transport at both whole-plant (phloem and xylem) and meristematic/cellular (plasmodesmata—PD) level (red squares), (2) phytohormone dynamics
(cytokinins—CK, auxins—IAA, gibberellins—GAs, and abscisic acid—ABA) (orange squares), (3) genetic and epigenetic regulation of the DORMANCY-ASSOCIATED
MADS-box (DAM) genes and the SHORT VEGETATIVE PHASE (SVP) genes (purple squares), and (4) carbohydrate dynamics (gray squares). Within each colored
square, the light squares indicate the concrete substance or process (plain text) and where it occurs (italics). % indicates rising levels, & decreasing levels, and Ø
indicates absence. The shaded sun refers to declining photoperiod whereas the black thermometer stands for declining temperatures. The blue and red thermometers
indicate that cold or warm temperatures, respectively, are directly associated with a given process. Black arrows establish a causal relationship between processes.

Link to paper: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1QNuooJR1uxij05EaE2-KF&cshid=1616022093218
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,383
Reaction score
15,855
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
Can you point us to said research
Not off the top of my head. Though I have read many books on the subject I retain almost none of the information verbatim and almost never the authors name, infrequently the title. When I was younger I thought that was so important. Now I do not. What I take away from my readings now is hard to define, but a good book with information that resonates changes my perception.
If you are really interested in the subject, you can find it as I did. If it is debate you seek ..... well..... there is plenty of that to be found.
I will in good faith try to put together a list of books that fit this category .... when I have the time to do so. In the meantime, keep searching if you are sincere.
 

penumbra

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,383
Reaction score
15,855
Location
Front Royal, VA
USDA Zone
6
The pain in the shoulder is not caused by the brain, it's a signal that the brain gets. I may or may not interpret the pain as an indication of this or that weather coming or going. It was a facetious statement, a reflection upon a real, well-known phenomenon that people with joint or old injury problems know well, that changes in weather are notoriously announced by additional pain. Some people, like you, are too poorly educated to know about these things, so people like me have to tell you about them. For the people who knew about this old saw, it was a funny. Too bad morons like you just can't pass up an opportunity to shame or cancel someone. That's another mission of mine: shoot your mouth off, and I'll set you straight. Your turn, moron.
Breath ...............
"people like me"
"morons like you"
Really????
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
I'm not going to pretend that I can follow that. I'm old and don't have enough un-spoken-for brain cells available to study your chart, -which I'm sure is valid science, but I have one little bone to pick: use of the words "intelligence" and "brain", et al, insinuate the ability to have volition. The adaptation processes are ingrained by the linage of the tree's location and are not voluntary, or changeable. That's why Cherry trees get their crops frozen out with late frosts. They don't know what's coming and can't respond anyway. I wish you guys would quit using words that imply wisdom. It's purely Darwinian happenstance.
 

hinmo24t

Masterpiece
Messages
2,480
Reaction score
3,165
Location
Dartmouth Massachusetts
USDA Zone
7A
Evergreen pears in the Bay Area start blooming just two weeks after the winter solstice when daylight has only increased by fifteen minutes per day and temperatures are the same.

How?
the change in sun pattern, despite temperature
 

Forsoothe!

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,878
Reaction score
9,248
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
6b
I found this:

"Intelligence is one's ability to learn from experience and to adapt to, shape, and select environments." (Dialogues Clin Neurosci. 2012 Mar; 14(1): 19–27.)
That's nice, but was he talking about flora? If they can select environments why don't the Cherry trees make a run for the border? I think this is the essence of a non sequitur.
 
Messages
818
Reaction score
1,133
Location
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
USDA Zone
7a
"Intelligence is one's ability to learn from experience and to adapt to, shape, and select environments." (Dialogues Clin Neurosci. 2012 Mar; 14(1): 19–27.)

So I think the key question, which I am not informed enough to answer, is do trees "learn from experience." Because that is a question of adaptability of a particular specimen over the lifespan. Of course that is not what makes humans special, and neither is "consciousness". What makes us special is the ability to transfer knowledge between generations outside of genetic reproduction. Can trees do that? I don't know - I don't speak treeish.

To me, when you look at any species in nature, it is possible to see amazing testaments to the ingenuity of evolution. Trees are no exception. The genetic adaptations that have survived down to "modern-day" tree species are incredible, no doubt. Intelligence and consciousness, likewise, are adaptations, and pretty impressive ones at that. Realizing that, we can lose our biological insecurities and appreciate it all.
 
Messages
818
Reaction score
1,133
Location
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
USDA Zone
7a
was he talking about flora

No, he was defining intelligence, and then applying that definition to the study of human intelligence. But that understanding of the term should be transferrable to other realms of inquiry, I think. Unless somebody can show me a different definition exists in the study of plant biology.
 

BonsaiMatt

Shohin
Messages
251
Reaction score
829
Location
Maryland
USDA Zone
7a
I'm not going to pretend that I can follow that. I'm old and don't have enough un-spoken-for brain cells available to study your chart, -which I'm sure is valid science, but I have one little bone to pick: use of the words "intelligence" and "brain", et al, insinuate the ability to have volition. The adaptation processes are ingrained by the linage of the tree's location and are not voluntary, or changeable. That's why Cherry trees get their crops frozen out with late frosts. They don't know what's coming and can't respond anyway. I wish you guys would quit using words that imply wisdom. It's purely Darwinian happenstance.
I never mentioned a brain or wisdom, those are your words. Intelligent systems come in many shapes and sizes.

Cherry trees do make a run for it: they grow tasty fruit that animals eat and plant the seeds in a new environment.
 
Top Bottom