Dwarf mugo pine with root rot need advice

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I want to address that this issue is man made: we shouldn't water a nursery can the same way (or amount of times) as we would water a bonsai pot.

This depends on the soil that is being used. A soil that has a large percentage of fine particles under .100 (just under 1/8) inch, will have a perched water table that will be at the same level regardless of pot type size/shape/height. In this case you wouldn't be able saturate the soil until water drains from the pot without creating the waterlogged conditions that promote root rot. A soil in which particle sizes are all over 1/8 inch will not support perched water, regardless of pot size,shape, and height, therefore you could saturate the soil frequently without fear of compromising root health

Root rot isn't caused by prolonged rain alone or soil type only, it's our personal lack of adapting to different soil types.

root rot occurs from lack of oxygen in the soil and/or high salt levels, thereby depriving/burning roots and preventing water/nutrient uptake. Both are linked to what soil you use.

It seems an issue in the bonsai world only. Other people, and whole nurseries relying on healthy plants, growing plants in 'bad' soils don't report the soils as being bad.

Wholesale Nurseries that aren't only field growing are employing pot-in-pot or pot-in-trench methods to to rid containers of excess water and keep their trees at an acceptable level of vitality in order to sell. Just because a tree is alive in these soils does not mean it is growing at it's full genetic potential.

Whenever I read or see 'bad soil' in a thread, it makes me wonder what's so bad about it.. It's not that the tree has lived its entirely life with issues due to that soil. It's us. It's our inability to waitin between waterings.
I'm a chronic over waterer in every soil. That makes me a bad caretaker. The soil is fine.

I don't recall saying "bad soils" however it is my opinion that most of the soils in the container trees I purchased from Nurseries are definitely not my standard of "good". Waiting in between waterings to compensate for waterlogged potting/nursery soils has its problems. Watering in small sips (just enough to moisten the soil but not enough to create the water logged conditions that sap root vitality creates a new problem, that being all of the salts found in tapwater remain in the soil. As the level of salts increases in the soil solution, the plants ability to take up water and the nutrients dissolved in water decreases. Normally, water moves through cell membranes toward a higher concentration of salts inside the cell. If the level of salts in the soil solution= the level of salts in the cell, no water moves into the cell. When the level of salts in the soil solution is higher than the level of salts in the cell, water moves out of the cell. This kills the cell. Fertilizing solutions contribute to this issue because all of the salts that go unused by the plant also accumulate in the soil.

I have a mugo pine that was grown in a teacup of potting soil for 5 years. If potting soil was the issue, it would've died in 2015. It only started going downhill until I bought it.

potting soil prevents trees from growing at their true genetic potential and if left in it they continue to decline in vitality year after year. Trying to repot/root prune a severely stressed tree already in decline is a good way to kill it.

I'm not pointing fingers, but it's food for thought.. If a gazillion nurseries show best practices, and we can't copy the effects, then the issue might be us.

You sort of pointed your finger at me and I'm not entirely sure why. What you quoted me on and what you wrote, at least from my perspective, had nothing to do with each other. No hostility intended, just a little confused.

 

[sorce]

I have, before this damn snow again, been noting my mugos and junipers drying, everything else is staying wet.

Reminds me how nice it is to not have auto water on.

In the beginning, I watered correct and everything else was wrong.
Then I watered incorrect and had everything else right.

Now I am going to water correct AND do everything else right.

Love that Rona!

Sorce

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have no hostile intentions whatsoever. I make the same mistakes and I do them more often then most people here. My trees suck and I know it. I'll be the first to admit that. But since I'm an honest guy, I like pointing out the harsh truths as well, the stuff that I believe could use some discussion. English isn't my first language, and the lack of nuances and my wordplay sometimes give off the wrong vibes, but let me assure you I have no bad intentions. I just want to discuss things about plants.

When talking organic soils, we shouldn't forget about the biological activity and relatively high buffering capacity compared to most bonsai soils. I've worked with a lot of different micro organisms and their ability to regulate acidity and take up salts should not be underestimated. I've been growing plants in potting soil for over 15 years now. Never in my life have I had a plant related issue that wasn't my own doing. And I had a lot of issues over the course of that time.

Tap water causing salt stress takes years in my yard and if the pH is on the right side of the balance, salts should wash out instead of accumulate. That's knowledge from the 1980's, maybe even earlier. Back then, people used rain water and vinegar or citric acid. Right now, they're blaming the soil and their water. That argument doesn't work with me. Salt buildup in a bonsai soil exceeds the buildup in a potting soil by miles, since there's a lot more evaporation from the medium itself. When that happens, all of a sudden everybody remembers that pH trick, or resorts to using RO/rainwater to flush the soil.
I'm part of a local gardening club and I convinced 60 people to get the cheapest super market potting soil they could find, instead of the expensive blends they get from specialized stores. I gave a small lecture about how to handle soil issues and all of a sudden we have people growing vegetables in the cheapest potting soil around, pure mason sand, garden dirt and on lava rocks.

Nurseries around here sell by size, so they have economic motives to get the most growth in a season. If their plants wouldn't be healthy or their methods would be wrong, then they would be throwing away hard cash. My country is known for three stereotypes that are true: we're allergic to sugar coating, we're good with plants (both weed and tulips, bell peppers and tomatoes) and we're cheapskates. If the nurseries wouldn't be getting the most bang for their bucks, they would all be selling wooden shoes to tourists.
If we know they use certain techniques, why don't we copy those to get the same potential out of our trees?
There's nothing stopping us but ourselves. Drilling a few extra holes in a container can fix a lot. I'm growing expensive itoigawa's in a peat and potting soil blend. And they do great!

The point I'm making is that we take bonsai soil properties into account in almost every move we make. Yet, with nursery containers and nursery soils, all of a sudden the entire bonsai community seems to forget that they have huge libraries of horticultural knowledge in their own brains. We have all the knowledge to account for these situations, we know what to do and if we don't, there's the internet describing these issues since the dawn of the internet itself. But we look for bonsai-specific information and then blame the soil when we find out that nursery soil isn't bonsai soil. I can safely say that there are ^10 the amount of threads and topics, articles and literature about potting soils compared to bonsai soils. Take the cannabis industry for instance, they rock this stuff! Their plants despise wet soils. Those people create over 200 threads a day in the US alone, with all kinds of issues related to soils. I know for a fact that Monsanto for instance, is not using any pumice. They're running a multi million dollar business.

That's weird isn't it? How is everyone in the world successful with potting soils, but we as a community are not?
I'm trying to get that point across to more people.

If you want to talk true genetic potential, I'm a big fan! I have all the plant hormones a regular person can buy (and some regulated laboratory ones). But that's a different game than bonsai. We aim for compact growth, precisely the opposite of true growth potential. There's a good reason why people take trees from the mountains and not from the lowlands where they grow optimally. I think it's because harsh conditions force a tree to inhibit that growth potential. It's exactly what we're doing with those tiny pots as well. Confinement and restriction. We should do that with out plants, we shouldn't do that with our horticultural knowledge.

 

[David wv]

In the future - if you have a nursery grown tree (especially conifers) that, in order to repot at the correct time of year, you must leave it growing in a water retentive mix that will effect root health, applying a wick (such as a long strand off a mop head) and pushing it several inches into the soil at the bottom of the pot through the drain holes and allowing what is left to dangle freely in the air. This will trick the excess water in the perched water table into seeking the bottom of the pot and continuing to drain out via the wick. If the roots are too congested to try this, you can get the same effect from burying the bottom 3 or 4 inches of the pot into the ground and let the earth act as a giant wick. This will get you by while you wait for the correct repotting time, without depriving the roots of oxygen and killing the tree in the meantime.

I wish I would have though of that, I already repotted the tree but this is a good idea, good to know for the future. I learn something new everyday.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I have no hostile intentions whatsoever. I make the same mistakes and I do them more often then most people here. My trees suck and I know it. I'll be the first to admit that. But since I'm an honest guy, I like pointing out the harsh truths as well, the stuff that I believe could use some discussion. English isn't my first language, and the lack of nuances and my wordplay sometimes give off the wrong vibes, but let me assure you I have no bad intentions. I just want to discuss things about plants.

I didn't think you did, I just know people will defend their own beliefs without reconsidering them logically. You're English is much better than some that have it as their first language.

When talking organic soils, we shouldn't forget about the biological activity and relatively high buffering capacity compared to most bonsai soils. I've worked with a lot of different micro organisms and their ability to regulate acidity and take up salts should not be underestimated. I've been growing plants in potting soil for over 15 years now. Never in my life have I had a plant related issue that wasn't my own doing. And I had a lot of issues over the course of that time.

There is nothing wrong with sphagnum peat in the short term for some scenarios, when used long term (more than a year) plantings it simply holds too much water, it stay saturated for a long time (sometimes weeks) and to water properly you have to let it dry out just too the point of it becoming hydrophobic. When I use it in soil mixes (not just bonsai) it plays a secondary role

Tap water causing salt stress takes years in my yard and if the pH is on the right side of the balance, salts should wash out instead of accumulate. That's knowledge from the 1980's, maybe even earlier. Back then, people used rain water and vinegar or citric acid. Right now, they're blaming the soil and their water. That argument doesn't work with me. Salt buildup in a bonsai soil exceeds the buildup in a potting soil by miles, since there's a lot more evaporation from the medium itself. When that happens, all of a sudden everybody remembers that pH trick, or resorts to using RO/rainwater to flush the soil.

This is 100% dependant on the grower, first off I honestly draw no distinction between "bonsai soil" and "soil" I use for every other plant I grow in containers for more than a year between repots, I start with a basic mix of 111 sifted(turface/granite/fir bark) and adjust the percentages depending on what I'm repotting. I water every day, sometimes twice, with r/o water that has foliage pro 936 diluted into it at 1.25 ml/ gallon. This is just my preference. The soil I use, holding virtually no excess water in between particles after watering, allows me to water daily without fear of perched water effecting root health and because I use such a weak dose of fertilizer (a fertilizer containing all the elements that the plants need and in the ratio at which they use them) daily I am giving the plants just as much as they need everuday but not enough for mineral buildup to be a concern. Potting soil or sphagnum peat would not allow me to water/fertilize in this manner.

I'm part of a local gardening club and I convinced 60 people to get the cheapest super market potting soil they could find, instead of the expensive blends they get from specialized stores. I gave a small lecture about how to handle soil issues and all of a sudden we have people growing vegetables in the cheapest potting soil around, pure mason sand, garden dirt and on lava rocks.

veggies, display containers, and other annuals are a different matter. Because the duration of their planting is so short and most of the plants themselves are so vigorous, gardeners do have limited success and are satisfied with the results using just potting soil. If you were to try and grow the same plants in the same soil for more than a year, they would begin to show signs of stress in spite of their vigour. For these plants I use a mix consisting of mostly composted pine bark, I would say 2 parts, with 1 part perlite and I will use peat in smaller quantities to adjust for water retention and, since I use an extended fertilizer in this situation and not foliage pro, I use garden lime to get my Ca and Mg. I still sift out all the fines to minimize perched water but since I am usually growing the plants in 5 gallon buckets and only for 1 season, perched water effecting root health is not an issue.

Nurseries around here sell by size, so they have economic motives to get the most growth in a season. If their plants wouldn't be healthy or their methods would be wrong, then they would be throwing away hard cash. My country is known for three stereotypes that are true: we're allergic to sugar coating, we're good with plants (both weed and tulips, bell peppers and tomatoes) and we're cheapskates. If the nurseries wouldn't be getting the most bang for their bucks, they would all be selling wooden shoes to tourists.
If we know they use certain techniques, why don't we copy those to get the same potential out of our trees?

Nurseries that grow vegetables and other such vigorous planys have no problem getting a decent sized plant from growing in potting soil and using different techniques to limit the negative effects of perched water. Nurseries in this country also employ the use of ga3 (gibberellic acid) right before they sell their stock. This is not being altogether honest with customers especially about how healthy their plants are to begin with and , once a customer purchases such a plant is disappointed in how half of the flowers rot off, foliage becomes crispy, etc. Every nursery uses it because it work, I tried it on different vegetables last year and was amazed at how well the did.

There's nothing stopping us but ourselves. Drilling a few extra holes in a container can fix a lot. I'm growing expensive itoigawa's in a peat and potting soil blend. And they do great!

The point I'm making is that we take bonsai soil properties into account in almost every move we make. Yet, with nursery containers and nursery soils, all of a sudden the entire bonsai community seems to forget that they have huge libraries of horticultural knowledge in their own brains. We have all the knowledge to account for these situations, we know what to do and if we don't, there's the internet describing these issues since the dawn of the internet itself. But we look for bonsai-specific information and then blame the soil when we find out that nursery soil isn't bonsai soil. I can safely say that there are ^10 the amount of threads and topics, articles and literature about potting soils compared to bonsai soils. Take the cannabis industry for instance, they rock this stuff! Their plants despise wet soils. Those people create over 200 threads a day in the US alone, with all kinds of issues related to soils. I know for a fact that Monsanto for instance, is not using any pumice. They're running a multi million dollar business.

That's weird isn't it? How is everyone in the world successful with potting soils, but we as a community are not?
I'm trying to get that point across to more people.

There is a difference between growing a healthy tree that holds up under the rigours of training and continuous pruning and shaping to create something beautiful and priceless and crop yields.

If you want to talk true genetic potential, I'm a big fan! I have all the plant hormones a regular person can buy (and some regulated laboratory ones). But that's a different game than bonsai. We aim for compact growth, precisely the opposite of true growth potential. There's a good reason why people take trees from the mountains and not from the lowlands where they grow optimally. I think it's because harsh conditions force a tree to inhibit that growth potential. It's exactly what we're doing with those tiny pots as well. Confinement and restriction. We should do that with out plants, we shouldn't do that with our horticultural knowledge

yes, harsh conditions do dwarf a trees vitality in the wild to force them into this stunted form (that we find beautiful) that clings to life. I personally try to replicate this in cultivation (into shapes that please me) whilst simultaneously ensuring that they are at optimal vitality and growing at or close to their predetermined genitic vigour. I enjoy civilized discussion on plant physiology, thank you for keeping it so.

 

[Aaronkslater]

awesome, I learned lots and people stayed civilized. thanks for a good read!!

 

[jcarpenter]

Some words of wisdom that I recently found (regrettably, I can't remember where I read it, but it was a well respected member of the bonsai community somewhere in Europe) strongly advocated for the use of 100% inorganic soil. Their reasoning was exactly the same as yours. That is, if your soil doesn't retain water, you can't over water it (neither can your friends who take care of them when you're away), so you can water everything daily during the growing season and as much as 3x/day on really hot days.

Furthermore, he said if you're using 100% inorganic soil, you can fertilize more than what's recommended. If I remember correctly, he said he fertilized insanely more than what the instructions stated (something like 20x), and he did this weekly throughout the entire growing season. The only thing he changed was and at the end of summer, he would switch from high N fertilizer to balanced N-P-K. He used the cheapest fertilizer he could find, and he used the exact same fertilizer and for everything. Maples, conifers, tropicals, didn't matter - everything gets the same fertilizer.

Note: I'm not telling people to start drowning their plants morning and night, and I'm not suggesting that people should go out and burn their plants with fertilizer. I'm simply repeating what I thought were wise words, and I'll reiterate that excessive watering and fertilizing would not work in anything but 100% inorganic soil.

P.S. If any of this rings a bell for anyone, please let me know who recommended these things so I can look them up and read more of their posts.

Cheers!
JGC

 

[jcarpenter]

Some words of wisdom that I recently found (regrettably, I can't remember where I read it, but it was a well respected member of the bonsai community somewhere in Europe) strongly advocated for the use of 100% inorganic soil. Their reasoning was exactly the same as yours. That is, if your soil doesn't retain water, you can't over water it (neither can your friends who take care of them when you're away), so you can water everything daily during the growing season and as much as 3x/day on really hot days.

Furthermore, he said if you're using 100% inorganic soil, you can fertilize more than what's recommended. If I remember correctly, he said he fertilized insanely more than what the instructions stated (something like 20x), and he did this weekly throughout the entire growing season. The only thing he changed was and at the end of summer, he would switch from high N fertilizer to balanced N-P-K. He used the cheapest fertilizer he could find, and he used the exact same fertilizer and for everything. Maples, conifers, tropicals, didn't matter - everything gets the same fertilizer.

Note: I'm not telling people to start drowning their plants morning and night, and I'm not suggesting that people should go out and burn their plants with fertilizer. I'm simply repeating what I thought were wise words, and I'll reiterate that excessive watering and fertilizing would not work in anything but 100% inorganic soil.

P.S. If any of this rings a bell for anyone, please let me know who recommended these things so I can look them up and read more of their posts.

Cheers!
JGC