Dwarf sand pine
- Thread starter Jarath
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BonsaiButler
Mame
good looking tree!
I'm not familiar with this species.
maybe one of the more experienced people here could answer more definitively.
But generally you would wait to repot until early spring.
I'm not familiar with this species.
maybe one of the more experienced people here could answer more definitively.
But generally you would wait to repot until early spring.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
I think a better idea would be to take care of it and not trim a single shoot untill you or someone else can graft it and preserve it as a potential cultivar.There are not any cultivars of Pinus clausa that I'm aware of. Was it a witches brooM he grafted?
What kind of bonsai would it be without ever being able to have a low branch? It's value is as a dwarf plant.
What kind of bonsai would it be without ever being able to have a low branch? It's value is as a dwarf plant.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
Why was it his last tree? Did the guy die? Did he graft others? Name it? Collecting and propagating witches brooms is a big deal to conifer enthusiasts.
I don't have any compatible understock right now but at some point I could graft some scions for you.
You would want a low grafted one for bonsai, he did this one on a mini standard.
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0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
There are two extremes to what you can do to a pine (aside from doing nothing).
- Treat it like a white pine - break off a portion the elongating candle (before or as needles are starting to show)
- Treat it like a black pine - cut off the entire candle sometime around the summer solstice
- If it is early enough in the season and the species can, it will make new terminal candles that will extend until near the end of the growing season
- Else, it will just make a bud that won't elongate until next year
- Cut off part of the shoot after it has hardened (needles are the normal dark green and don't come loose with a gentle tug).
- This ought to induce the release of buds at the base of needle groups (fascicular budding).
Branches are largely autonomous, so you can try these treatments on a branch or two and see how it responds, without risking the health of the whole tree - just tag/id which branch(es) got which treatment. It will also matter when you do these things. I suggest starting with sometime in March and 21 June - 4 July also. Once you see what happens, you can decide whether you want to do it earlier/later to satistfy your aims.
carp
Chumono
OP; try and airlayer the new candles in the spring (same way JBP is airlayered) and grow the sand pine on its own roots.
The reason they are grafted to slash is that they are extremy difficult to collect. The graft will never look good, its more than likely a top graft. I've never been about to find the witches broom for sale but they are very commonly seen in the wild on sand pine.
The reason they are grafted to slash is that they are extremy difficult to collect. The graft will never look good, its more than likely a top graft. I've never been about to find the witches broom for sale but they are very commonly seen in the wild on sand pine.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
It's probably grafted on slash because it's a common forestry type seedling that the nursery guy had on hand. Why would you collect an understock? I'm not sure what you mean by top graft. Most common for garden conifers is side veneer graft. Problem with this one is its grafted a foot above the soil line. Which is fine for a garden plant.
Don't air layer it or try to root a cutting. Probably won't work. Whereas anyone with a little skill and experience can get 90-100 percent of grafts to take.
It might be a unique plant. Even if the species brooms with some frequency there aren't any cultivated forms in the trade
carp
Chumono
Sand Pine is commonly top-grafted to Slash Pine, because Sand Pine is next to impossible to collect. I'm not sure how easily Sand germinate from seed, but Slash germinates anywhere it touches.
It is a top graft, not a side graft. The "top" of the stock is cut horizontally, then a vertical incision is made in the stock, the scion is wedged into the incision. No roots needed on the scion. It's not an uncommon graft at all.
I've seen dozens of these Sand/Slash in person at my local native plant nursery, and they're all done the same way; top grafts. Tops are commonly done with 15gal standard gardenia as well.
We graft our gardenia to nematode resitant root stock, may be the same for sand pine, but unlikely because nematode thrive in sand. Slash pine barks up and grows much quicker than Sand pine, and that's probably the reason its done as a top. You get the barked trunk and then throw the smaller needle on top to make it look like an old pine tree fast.
Sand Pine is a native Florida pine that I am familiar with, unlike yourself. The fact that what the OP has is a dwarf witches broom makes it desirable to separate and grow on its on roots for bonsai, but no other reason. This type of graft makes a terrible union. Totally unappealing and useless for bonsai. On top of how awful the union looks, the bark type is different and noticeably so. In the nursery trade, those things don't matter.
It's not often that they are found in the trade (ungrafted), but they, dwarf Sand Pine, are not unheard and are available for sale on their own roots. This is not an oddity of any sort. Like I said, its very common in the wild. Next time I go to a scrub, I'll photo as many witches broom as possible and I can look through my most recent Plant Finder to see if I can track down a retailer while I'm at home.
To do a successful airlayer on this species, try the methods used with Japanese Black Pine. You can not air layer any old branches or a trunk, but the 1-2 year old candles will layer on JBP. Slash and Sand Pine are both 2 needle pines and should react the same way. These species are to be treated like JBP, not JWP, it is not a 3 or 5 needle pine.
These are not suggestions or assumptions.
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Txhorticulture
Chumono
You're describing a wedge graft. Which is common for for things like citrus and hibiscus. Never seen it on a conifer. Maybe that's how they do it in florida.....
Really on its roots? Show me the dwarf sand pines on their own roots. Propagated from witches brooms.
Shoot show me the witches broom sand pines propagated any way... since they are common apparently.
Really on its roots? Show me the dwarf sand pines on their own roots. Propagated from witches brooms.
Shoot show me the witches broom sand pines propagated any way... since they are common apparently.
Txhorticulture
Chumono
That makes no sense at all. Needle number is not indicative of relatedness or that they will respond the same way. Plus it's clear you've never done it.
I've grafted lots of conifers and maples this kid is representing himself as an expert about something he's never done.
Cypress187
Masterpiece
It's very nice.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Cypress187
Masterpiece
It looks very healthy i mean, and not dead, so that nice
Well i casted my vote i hope it helps.
carp
Chumono
This kid happens to be the curator of the largest tropical collection of bonsai in the US, and I also work in a retail plant nursery. People would rather argue on forums than accept factual information, that's why I don't post often.
Hate to name drop, but do you know Rob Kempinski? Only reason I mention him is he has been my local go-to-guy for pine knowledge and happens to have received a lot of national merit. He is the most knowledgeable on pine species in Florida, in my opinion, and he is apart of my local bonsai club. I've worked with him on Slash, Sand and Black Pine at his home. He's one of the only guys I know that even has a Sand Pine in a bonsai pot. I also know of Rosemary Voelker having one, this photo being her tree.
Rob and I did not graft or air layer them, but we treat them the same as we treat Japanese Black Pine and other 2-flush pines. Techniques to layer and graft should be the same, because they are 2-flush and 2-needle pines. And like you said, anyone with little experience can graft with 90-100% success rate, so what makes you believe this is an newly discovered cultivar?
http://www.thenatives.net/The_Hermit/meet_Steve/meet_steve.html
http://www.thenatives.net/The_Hermi...-s_creations_2/Grafted_Pine_Explanation_2.jpg
I said, dwarf sand pines grown on their own roots are not often found, but not unavailable. Witches Broom appears from either fungal, viral, bacterial attacks, or a genetic mutation. I do not think the Sand Pine witches broom is genetic because it is too common of an occurrence. The species must be prone to something that is causing the dwarfism. I wouldn't even be surprised if would revert back to the normal growth habit over time the same way Ficus benjimina 'Too Little' does.
Hate to name drop, but do you know Rob Kempinski? Only reason I mention him is he has been my local go-to-guy for pine knowledge and happens to have received a lot of national merit. He is the most knowledgeable on pine species in Florida, in my opinion, and he is apart of my local bonsai club. I've worked with him on Slash, Sand and Black Pine at his home. He's one of the only guys I know that even has a Sand Pine in a bonsai pot. I also know of Rosemary Voelker having one, this photo being her tree.
Rob and I did not graft or air layer them, but we treat them the same as we treat Japanese Black Pine and other 2-flush pines. Techniques to layer and graft should be the same, because they are 2-flush and 2-needle pines. And like you said, anyone with little experience can graft with 90-100% success rate, so what makes you believe this is an newly discovered cultivar?
http://www.thenatives.net/The_Hermit/meet_Steve/meet_steve.html
http://www.thenatives.net/The_Hermi...-s_creations_2/Grafted_Pine_Explanation_2.jpg
I said, dwarf sand pines grown on their own roots are not often found, but not unavailable. Witches Broom appears from either fungal, viral, bacterial attacks, or a genetic mutation. I do not think the Sand Pine witches broom is genetic because it is too common of an occurrence. The species must be prone to something that is causing the dwarfism. I wouldn't even be surprised if would revert back to the normal growth habit over time the same way Ficus benjimina 'Too Little' does.
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
What's with the "day job"; is your curatorship a volunteer gig? Don't take that the wrong way - I'm genuinely curious, as I would have thought it to be full-time employment . . .
carp
Chumono
I get one 8hr day a week, with 2hrs of drive time uncompensated. The only other curator I speak to on a frequent basis is Glen Lord at the Arnold Arboretum; he only gets something like 27 days a year. He's much better compensated, but my collection is in a non-profit botanical garden with a lack of funding.
