Field collected trees

[IdAu]

I'm sure some of this will depend on the species but what can I do to prep future field collected trees?

I have a ton of Ponderosa Pine around my mine growing at all stages of life. Should I start topping/wiring some of the younger ones? At what size would I start? I should be able to tend to them for years to come.

From what I'm learning it sounds like a huge time investment (years) goes into just thickening trunks with the trees in the ground. Does a lot of work have to go into them while they are growing, or can I just select an older tree with the desired trunk thickness, cut it down to size and bag it?


I think evergreens require a different approach since they can't lose all their needles and regrow like deciduous trees? I also want to collect some quaking aspen from up in the mountains in a couple of weeks if that requires anything different. These ones I don't have access to tend to for years.

Thanks.

 

[BrianBay9]

How much experience with bonsai do you have?

 

[IdAu]

How much experience with bonsai do you have?

I'm just getting started.

 

[BrianBay9]

This place has a wealth of info on collecting trees. You can search here for several threads regarding collecting Ponderosa, like this one.......

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Thread 'Collected Ponderosa Pine Questions'

Jun 17, 2014

Hey Bonsai nuts. I'm a newbie here and I recently collected a Rocky MTN Ponderosa Pine from a friend's land here in Colorado. The tree was growing out from underneath a boulder beneath a canopy of larger pine trees, on a slight incline. The boulder was oval shaped and the tree wasn't growing from the rock as much as it was just growing under the side of the rock. The main branch had grown up until it hit the boulder and then the whole thing shot out from underneath. After removing the surface bark/needles I was basically able to lift the tree right off the ground. (Minus maybe one feeder...

• Deleted member 17587
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• Forum: Pines

There is a Forum here specifically for collecting trees.

You can also check out Andy Smith's website here: https://www.goldenarrowbonsai.com/

My advice would be to get some experience with keeping Ponderosa alive in pots for a bit before you start collecting trees. Without a mentor to advise, that's kind of jumping into the deep end.

 

[BrianBay9]

When you're ready to collect, make it worthwhile. The most important point is to select the right tree. I've collected dozens of Ponderosa in the Rockies with an 80% success rate. Those dozens came from searching thousands of trees for the right characteristics. Best when grown in rock pockets on granite ridges. The tree should have movement and taper in the low area of the trunk, low branching, and character. And it has to be collectable. Most will be locked into the rock and only accessible with dynamite. But if you find the right tree you can pop it out of a rock pocket, cut a root or two, and put it in a pot and it will hardly notice. Ponderosa in good soil grow straight and strong - not the right trees and too much work to collect.

 

[IdAu]

When you're ready to collect, make it worthwhile. The most important point is to select the right tree. I've collected dozens of Ponderosa in the Rockies with an 80% success rate. Those dozens came from searching thousands of trees for the right characteristics. Best when grown in rock pockets on granite ridges. The tree should have movement and taper in the low area of the trunk, low branching, and character. And it has to be collectable. Most will be locked into the rock and only accessible with dynamite. But if you find the right tree you can pop it out of a rock pocket, cut a root or two, and put it in a pot and it will hardly notice. Ponderosa in good soil grow straight and strong - not the right trees and too much work to collect.

Luckily the mine has lots of granite. Some of these trees look like they don’t even touch soil.

Thanks for the tips. Im sure it’s not easy and requires experience, but the cool part is it’s free to try. Unlike spending a fortune on nursery trees.

 

[rockm]

I would skip this entirely for a few years. It is 'free' monetarily (which is a myth mostly-you're spending money on soil, pots, digging equipment -shovels are mostly of little use BTW) but you will lose most of what you expend effort on at this point. Sure scout likely candidates, mark their locations then come back when you have enough experience to get them (or see that many are uncollectible).

Sorry, but bonsai has a steep learning curve. The learning curve for Collecting trees (particularly conifers from challenging locations) is steeper and requires learning a separate set of skills (based on knowledge you get with bonsai). Trees with collectible 'pocket' root masses are hardly common and you have to know what you're looking at. It would be a shame to kill a 300 year old tree because you are moving too quickly.

Digging all those great trees now when you can't adequately do it or provide proper aftercare (which is more important than the actual collection) will possibly waste them for no reason. Learn bonsai first, find a club and go collecting your first few times with folks who know how to do it. Then after you have some experience collect a couple of trees that aren't all that great learn on those.

Collecting sounds easy and cost-free, but in reality, it can be a bundle of unexpected challenges. You have to be able to recognize the challenges to be successful

 

[IdAu]

I would skip this entirely for a few years. It is 'free' monetarily (which is a myth mostly-you're spending money on soil, pots, digging equipment -shovels are mostly of little use BTW) but you will lose most of what you expend effort on at this point. Sure scout likely candidates, mark their locations then come back when you have enough experience to get them (or see that many are uncollectible).

Sorry, but bonsai has a steep learning curve. The learning curve for Collecting trees (particularly conifers from challenging locations) is steeper and requires learning a separate set of skills (based on knowledge you get with bonsai). Trees with collectible 'pocket' root masses are hardly common and you have to know what you're looking at. It would be a shame to kill a 300 year old tree because you are moving too quickly.

Digging all those great trees now when you can't adequately do it or provide proper aftercare (which is more important than the actual collection) will possibly waste them for no reason. Learn bonsai first, find a club and go collecting your first few times with folks who know how to do it. Then after you have some experience collect a couple of trees that aren't all that great learn on those.

Collecting sounds easy and cost-free, but in reality, it can be a bundle of unexpected challenges. You have to be able to recognize the challenges to be successful

Gotcha. So some of these sapling are going to get blasted out anyway. Do you think it would be beneficial to get my feet wet and see if I can even keep the sapling alive in pots, even if they aren't suitable for bonsai?

I'm also very curious about what you mean 300 year old tree. You may collect a very old tree for bonsai? Wouldn't it be huge? Or do you look for something very specific in the rock pockets like a twisted burl stump that's still alive with a tiny bit of growth? I figured collected ponderosa would only be 3-6' tall.

 

[BrianBay9]

Gotcha. So some of these sapling are going to get blasted out anyway. Do you think it would be beneficial to get my feet wet and see if I can even keep the sapling alive in pots, even if they aren't suitable for bonsai?

I'm also very curious about what you mean 300 year old tree. You may collect a very old tree for bonsai? Wouldn't it be huge? Or do you look for something very specific in the rock pockets like a twisted burl stump that's still alive with a tiny bit of growth? I figured collected ponderosa would only be 3-6' tall.

Depending on the site, some of these trees might grow a caliper inch of trunk in 50 - 100 yrs, and may never have limbs higher than 3-4 ft survive winter winds and snow. With roots confined in rock pockets, and limited rain during summer they will just squeak along. These are the conditions that add character - twisted trunks, jin and shari - that make yamadori worth collecting.

 

[IdAu]

Depending on the site, some of these trees might grow a caliper inch of trunk in 50 - 100 yrs, and may never have limbs higher than 3-4 ft survive winter winds and snow. With roots confined in rock pockets, and limited rain during summer they will just squeak along. These are the conditions that add character - twisted trunks, jin and shari - that make yamadori worth collecting.

I have a lot of trees growing nearly straight out of rock.





I dug what little soil there was away. How do you successfully get them out of the rock pockets?




This guy was on the road and had to go, so I took it home in a 5 gallon bucket of the soil it was growing in. Do you think there's any chance it will survive? Anything I can do to increase it's odds? It looks like I cut more of the roots than I thought.

 

[BrianBay9]

Terrain more like this. The little thing in the pocket on the right center (not the tall tree) is a Pondy I collected.



If you rock the trunk and the entire root ball in the rock pocket moves, it may be collectable.

This is not the right time of year to collect these. Early spring, just as the snow melts is best. Late fall can work. Chance of survival of that one is low but you might as well put it in a pot and see what happens. Learning proper aftercare is also vital. Moist not wet. Morning sun, afternoon shade. Don't do anything with it until (if) is shows strong growth. That can take anywhere from one to three years.

 

[IdAu]

Terrain more like this. The little thing in the pocket on the right center (not the tall tree) is a Pondy I collected.

View attachment 612266

If you rock the trunk and the entire root ball in the rock pocket moves, it may be collectable.

This is not the right time of year to collect these. Early spring, just as the snow melts is best. Late fall can work. Chance of survival of that one is low but you might as well put it in a pot and see what happens. Learning proper aftercare is also vital. Moist not wet. Morning sun, afternoon shade. Don't do anything with it until (if) is shows strong growth. That can take anywhere from one to three years.

Thanks. It's free, they need to be removed anyway, and I'm bored so I going to collect a handful and see if any make it through spring.

Is a regular pot (or bucket with drain holes) the best thing to pop them in when collecting, or should I build some grow boxes with better aeration and draining to grow out the roots?

 

[IdAu]

Another thing I just thought about... A lot of the areas I want to collect from have snow and aren't accessible until June or even July. I can't really collect them in "Spring."

 

[Shibui]

Trees do not follow a calendar. Bonsai work should also not be tied to calendar months. Spring, for the trees, is when the snow melts.

 

[rockm]

Gotcha. So some of these sapling are going to get blasted out anyway. Do you think it would be beneficial to get my feet wet and see if I can even keep the sapling alive in pots, even if they aren't suitable for bonsai?

I'm also very curious about what you mean 300 year old tree. You may collect a very old tree for bonsai? Wouldn't it be huge? Or do you look for something very specific in the rock pockets like a twisted burl stump that's still alive with a tiny bit of growth? I figured collected ponderosa would only be 3-6' tall.

Most impressive older bonsai were not created as small bonsai and grown into large bonsai (it happens but that's is not really how it works) larger bonsai are "cut down" from larger older trees. You collect the bottom 1/5 to 1/3 of the trunk of a given candidate (this has variations conifers cant be reduced beyond any green growth, deciduous trees can be cut down to the root crown and survive). The remaining stump regenerates an apex and branches. This can happen relatively quickly, within a decade or less for some trees.

This is an Escarpment live oak that was reduced from a 25 to 30' tree dug up in Texas in the mid-1990's. I've been working on it since then. It is over 300 years old or so as I counted the growth rings on a severed section of the trunk. The photos are of what I started with and about 25 years later.

 

[IdAu]

Trees do not follow a calendar. Bonsai work should also not be tied to calendar months. Spring, for the trees, is when the snow melts.

So then I'm only a month or two into Spring now? Or because there is a tiny "compact season" with snow already starting in a month or two it's fall? This is confusing.

Say the high mountains only have a couple of months between snow melt and new snow. Do you just try to split it evenly into Spring, Summer, Fall, even if it's only a month each?

 

[IdAu]

Most impressive older bonsai were not created as small bonsai and grown into large bonsai (it happens but that's is not really how it works) larger bonsai are "cut down" from larger older trees. You collect the bottom 1/5 to 1/3 of the trunk of a given candidate (this has variations conifers cant be reduced beyond any green growth, deciduous trees can be cut down to the root crown and survive). The remaining stump regenerates an apex and branches. This can happen relatively quickly, within a decade or less for some trees.

This is an Escarpment live oak that was reduced from a 25 to 30' tree dug up in Texas in the mid-1990's. I've been working on it since then. It is over 300 years old or so as I counted the growth rings on a severed section of the trunk. The photos are of what I started with and about 25 years later.

I've seen videos of people chopping and collecting, but it looked like 5- maybe 20 years old. Do you have any pictures of that tree in the ground?? 27 FEET it was? How was the trunk only that small in diameter?

 

[rockm]

So then I'm only a month or two into Spring now? Or because there is a tiny "compact season" with snow already starting in a month or two it's fall? This is confusing.

Say the high mountains only have a couple of months between snow melt and new snow. Do you just try to split it evenly into Spring, Summer, Fall, even if it's only a month each?

As said you can’t effectively divide up seasons particularly in alpine environments. It is what it is. Collect when the ground is warm enough for growth to start. There is no exact “ go date” for that. You have to recognize it. That is why collection isn’t as simple as it looks. There are many variables. Seasons are only one. Persistent drought can cancel a collection season as well as drought pushes trees to the brink you digging them up or even messing with surrounding soil/rocks can do the same.

 

[rockm]

I've seen videos of people chopping and collecting, but it looked like 5- maybe 20 years old. Do you have any pictures of that tree in the ground?? 27 FEET it was? How was the trunk only that small in diameter?

You are making big beginner assumptions. You cannot tell the age of a tree by its size or its look or its height. Trees are subject to local environments. That can limit growth upwards and outwards. A 15 year old tree may look ancient and be 50 feet tall while a 200 year old tree might be three feet tall with a thin wispy trunk. Finding tiny dwarfed ancient trees ready made for bonsai is a unicorn myth. There are a handful of those worldwide (and they tend to need some kind of refinement work to make them look like trees and not random shrubbery

I don’t have photos of the tree when it was reduced, but I knew the guy who collected it pretty well. He said it was growing on a Salado Texas cattle ranch among the tangle of chaparral. This ain’t atypical for deciduous tree collection. Yeah. 25-30 feet tall. Dense dense wood that dulled three hand saw blades because of the close growth rings.

If you want to see what’s possible with reduction. Do a search on bald cypress collection. They’re champions of severe reduction

 

[IdAu]

As said you can’t effectively divide up seasons particularly in alpine environments. It is what it is. Collect when the ground is warm enough for growth to start. There is no exact “ go date” for that. You have to recognize it. That is why collection isn’t as simple as it looks. There are many variables. Seasons are only one. Persistent drought can cancel a collection season as well as drought pushes trees to the brink you digging them up or even messing with surrounding soil/rocks can do the same.

I got that there is no calendar date. What I meant was, even if each season is only a month or even less, then that's what it is right?

In the area I want to collect Aspen, there almost isn't even a summer. A long Spring where it can be slowly warming up and sunny out, but snow remains on the ground, a summer that lasts about 5 seconds, and then fall again.