Field growing soil prep

[markyscott]

Wow thank you everyone for your great replies.
I think I was skipping that whole colander phase just because I was getting ahead of myself and forgot.
I will search for a proper soil testing kit. I might use the one suggested.
I don't have as much room as I would like I have along my northern fence.
I plan on putting in as many trees as will fit without crowding them ( I have a decent supply of trees I can take cutttings from, or airlayer)
And thanks again for all the sources. I have a lot to read.

I see no value whatever in sinking a colander in the ground for deciduous trees unless you're interested in preventing the roots from running and causing them to encircle the trunk. The former will limit nebari development and the latter will encourage flaws that will take years to correct. With all respect owed to Anthony, one thing I've learned on this forum is to ask for results before you accept 3rd-hand advice. I'm sure his suggestion was offered in the best possible way, but what do the Welshman's trees look like? Do they represent something you are hoping to achieve?

Scott

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

You may want to consider grow boxes, like the ones used for vegetable gardens. I once had a pretty robust garden till I got bit by the bonsai bug. I dug up my tomatoes and cucs and planted elms and crab-apples! I've had success with regular potting soil, lots of sun and water.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I see no value whatever in sinking a colander in the ground for deciduous trees unless you're interested in preventing the roots from running and causing them to encircle the trunk. The former will limit nebari development and the latter will encourage flaws that will take years to correct. With all respect owed to Anthony, one thing I've learned on this forum is to ask for results before you accept 3rd-hand advice. I'm sure his suggestion was offered in the best possible way, but what do the Welshman's trees look like? Do they represent something you are hoping to achieve?

Scott

I'm currently experimenting w/ both colanders and rootmaker knit bags (https://shop.arborday.org/product.aspx?zpid=887) in my garden. I've only been doing it for a couple of years, so I don't have a ton of results yet...but my assumption is that a rootmaker or colander might slow the growth of tree a bit (b/c it doesn't allow for the roots to escape), but would create a bag full of very fine roots. Setting you up for a nice transition into a pot. Would the results in the ground be much different than out of the ground, in respect to creating fine roots? Why would roots circle the colander or rootbag if it was in the ground? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand Always very much appreciate your posts and info on this forum!

 

[hemmy]

I'm currently experimenting w/ both colanders and rootmaker knit bags (https://shop.arborday.org/product.aspx?zpid=887) in my garden. I've only been doing it for a couple of years, so I don't have a ton of results yet...but my assumption is that a rootmaker or colander might slow the growth of tree a bit (b/c it doesn't allow for the roots to escape), but would create a bag full of very fine roots. Setting you up for a nice transition into a pot. Would the results in the ground be much different than out of the ground, in respect to creating fine roots? Why would roots circle the colander or rootbag if it was in the ground? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand Always very much appreciate your posts and info on this forum!

I just up potted some 1.5 yr old deciduous material from the gallon fabric rootmaker bags in cinder blocks (the pic is a mimosa). I left the material in the bag too long and roots had escaped. I had to cut the ($3) bags off. It was material that I transferred from 1/2 gal pots to bags in late last summer. I believe in the ground the some roots would escape and you woul greatly enlarge only 1 or 2 roots unbalancing nebari.

The main purpose of rootmaker pots is air pruning roots, which does not work in ground, unless you are pot-in-pot. They do have a mesh fabrics that allows roots to escape in the ground but 'restricts size of roots and keeps sugars back behind the bag'.

Production nurseries are good studies for horticultural tips, but remember we have different goals. They want fast trees that they can easily transport and sell. We want fast trees with desirable bonsai attributes. I like building my initial dense root mass in air pots and then planting to the ground for rapid growth.

 

[Dav4]

I have ground grown out trees in 3 separate locations on the east coast and I've never bothered to do any soil testing. If trees, bushes and perennials are all growing well in the given location, you can be fairly well assured your trees will grow well, too. If you have deep, loamy soil, you're good to go. If it's heavy clay, amending with organic material like peat or compost will help opening up the soil structure, and raised beds would improve drainage. If the soil is chalky, lots of organic ammendments would be needed, and at this point, I'd consider soil testing. Follow Markyscott's advice and you'll be off to a great start. I'd also suggest applying a 2" deep layer of bark mulch around your tree's after planting to assist with moisture control and further improve the soil.

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I just up potted some 1.5 yr old deciduous material from the gallon fabric rootmaker bags in cinder blocks (the pic is a mimosa). I left the material in the bag too long and roots had escaped. I had to cut the ($3) bags off. It was material that I transferred from 1/2 gal pots to bags in late last summer. I believe in the ground the some roots would escape and you woul greatly enlarge only 1 or 2 roots unbalancing nebari.

The main purpose of rootmaker pots is air pruning roots, which does not work in ground, unless you are pot-in-pot. They do have a mesh fabrics that allows roots to escape in the ground but 'restricts size of roots and keeps sugars back behind the bag'.

Production nurseries are good studies for horticultural tips, but remember we have different goals. They want fast trees that they can easily transport and sell. We want fast trees with desirable bonsai attributes. I like building my initial dense root mass in air pots and then planting to the ground for rapid growth.

View attachment 156190

Ok, just so I understand your process...

You took (or like to take) nursery material and essential "slip-pot" it into a fabric bag. From there, you take the fabric bag and place it upright in a cinder block. You left it there for about a year... After the fabric rootmaker bag has created a fibrous root mass, you place it, unrestricted, into the ground. Is that correct? (Nice roots on that Mimosa, btw). Would you cut back those roots b/f placing it in the ground?

 

[Anthony]

@markyscott ,

The Welshman was stationed in Trinidad for 4 years at the Airport Control;
he got large trunks and great root spread. He was a member of Colin Lewis's
club , when Mr.Lewis was in the UK.

As I get some free time I will post the one in the growing trough.

The colander allows the tree to have compact feeders, when it enters the ground,
the roots escape and the trunk thickens.

When you dig up, the colander returns the roots to the root pruning stage
and works very well as a safety net.
So there is no fear of loss due to too few roots.

If you want nebari, you put the plant on a tile in the colander.
Good Day
Anthony

But Scott have you not seen this -
Celtis l.




the base -

 

[Anthony]

Or this one - Celtis l.



it became this -



now at the ramification training stage

 

[Anthony]

Just in case anyone needs a reminder of how efficient an air-pot makes the roots.
Both Tamarinds are the same age and in the same amount of soil.

So when you take out of the ground, the colander returns very high efficiency to
the roots.
In a few months you can tidy up and go to the larger pot ramification stage.
Good Day
Anthony

Note the tape as markers.
Tamarind from the air-pot is now in a normal bonsai pot and kept the quality, with
smaller leaves as well.

 

[markyscott]

Yeesh. I'm not going to get drawn into another colander debate. If folks like them that's great. I don't personally use them for developing broadleaf trees but I do use them for pines. I see no purpose in putting trees in a colander in the ground because the whole idea behind air pots and colanders is to prevent encircling roots through air pruning. If you put it in the ground that doesn't happen any more, so what is the point? If regular root work is properly done during ground growing, there will be sufficient roots to sustain the plant when it's transitioned back to the pot. I've never known that to have been a problem.

Scott

 

[Anthony]

Sad Scott, very sad.
Just trying to share and help as you did for me,
Anthony :-{

 

[hemmy]

Ok, just so I understand your process...

You took (or like to take) nursery material and essential "slip-pot" it into a fabric bag. From there, you take the fabric bag and place it upright in a cinder block. You left it there for about a year... After the fabric rootmaker bag has created a fibrous root mass, you place it, unrestricted, into the ground. Is that correct? (Nice roots on that Mimosa, btw). Would you cut back those roots b/f placing it in the ground?

To be clear, for established nursery material I would use the method Scott outlined previously. Nursery material should already have a decent rootball which you will work flat for spreading when you plant out. I see no benefit in air pruning nursery material and losing a season before planting out in the ground.

The fabric bag/cinder block method was taking seedlings grown in air pruning cells and potting them up to the gallon bags to further densify the root mass. The benefit of the blocks is they are cheap, insulating and don't blow over. I can slip pot and even prune a few roots on young material now because I live coastal SoCal where it is 75F everyday. I only have a few spots for ground growing, so most of these are just getting potted up to grow on for caliper. If I was going to ground grow it, I would wait until early fall or spring and spread the root mass flat on a tile in the ground, basically Scott's method.

Also, this was my first time with bags and I either waited to long to pot up or the small bags are not easily reusable. I had to cut them off. But it always amazes me to see comparisons of trees grown from seed in air pots vs standard liners. My air pot trees always have thicker stems and more branching. Drives home the finer, branching roots equals finer, branching branches concept. And to really stir the hornets, I also believe the breakdown of akadama promotes this fine branching in Bonsai potted specimens!

 

[TyroTinker]

... . And to really stir the hornets, I also believe the breakdown of akadama promotes this fine branching in Bonsai potted specimens!

Hahaha ok now you've done it even I know that's a touchy subject.

But I'm all seriousness this is all great info and I have a lot of good info, and a lot more to research.
And I am glad that everyone told me what THEY do, and what they recommend.

 

[Jeremy]

Sad Scott, very sad.
Just trying to share and help as you did for me,
Anthony :-{

Oh c'mon Anthony, everything Scott has said is true. From my experience, and plain logical thinking, colanders only work for their intended purpose above ground. The images you shared show some lateral roots which would've been achieved without the colander anyway. But where are the images of the rootball inside the colander? Is it still as full of fine roots as it would be above ground? My first year of ground growing I tried this on several deciduous species after reading the bogus info on Ausbonsai. Results? Nothing special, roots even grew downwards infact its a pain in the rear having to smash and cut the colanders because the roots escape and expand.
I still have a Delonix Regia out the front of my property in a colander, its been in there for 3 years. I'll dig it out today and take some shots.

 

[M. Frary]

I second what @Dav4 says.
If the trees in the area you plan to plant your trees just use the native soil. The roots will need to run out into it sooner or later anyways.
There is an old nursery man saying for transplanted trees.
Its:
The first year they sleep.
The second year they creep.
The third year they leap.
This means it takes about 3 years for a tree to become established after transplant.

 

[Waltron]

There's an old book by peter Adams on Japanese maples, he touches on the subject in that book, and it's really overall just a great book, one of the best to start with imo. determine if you have clay, sandy, or nice dirt in your yard, dig hole, fill with good organic soil.. more if you have clay or sand.. boom done, plant tree, add water. Make sure you can reach it with a hose. Probably want to mulch it.

I have clay soil so I can dig out a hole in my yard and it's basically like a big pot in the ground. I've been experimenting with a French drain idea, basically clay soil with a deep course drain layer of lava rock, pea gravel whatever, then fill with a nice organic soil mix to grow in that way you can kinda control the depth of the deepest roots with the height of the drain layer.
Another idea I'm partial is instead of using mulch to cover the soil, pea gravel actually works well for the same purpose. I know a guy who uses old carpet as landscape cloth, then mulches over it, for some reason old carpet makes amazing compost idk why doesn't sound good but for some reason... this guy grows monsters.

 

[hemmy]

Its:
The first year they sleep.
The second year they creep.
The third year they leap.

I've heard this before. Interesting that Dr. Whitcomb (Rootmaker pots) attributes this slow growth to poor root masses from traditional ball & burlap and plastic liner material. He claims to have normal growth in the following season after transplant, attributed to his dense root masses from the air pruning pots.

It would be interesting to know if landscape pros still hold by the old adage or if their expectations have been raised by the air pruned material.

Since I only have a couple trees in the ground, I don't have enough sample size to say one way or another on vigorous growth.

It may be that we lift our plants to train the roots so often that all this air pruning is unnecessary.

https://rootmaker.com/sites/default/files/pdf/DesigningTransplantTrees2ColE.pdf

 

[herzausstahl]

I second what @Dav4 says.
If the trees in the area you plan to plant your trees just use the native soil. The roots will need to run out into it sooner or later anyways.
There is an old nursery man saying for transplanted trees.
Its:
The first year they sleep.
The second year they creep.
The third year they leap.
This means it takes about 3 years for a tree to become established after transplant.

My garden landscape trees (pines in clay) are a great example of this! And year 4/5 they kept leaping!

 

[Anthony]

@Jeremy ,

thanks for the response.

Here's what we did, colander and tree for as long as it takes the tree to master the soil.
i.e if you lift the tree by the trunk, you lift the colander [ root bound and action done gently ]

[2] Smallest colander needed for the job.

[3] Placed in the growing trough [ don't use the ground, as the house has troughs surounding
it ]

[4] Since we only grow to 15 / 18 inches [ 38 to 46 cms ] it may take as little a year to get a 3" [ 8 cm]
trunk for our local trees.

[5] Along the way we select 6 branches and train.

It's that simple.

When we dig up, you just slice off any roots that are too large from the outside of the colander.
Leave for the plant to re-air prune.
Then lift and place into a larger pot for refinement.

The colander acts as a safety net.

I believe we have been doing this since 2010, when Brother-in-law joined Ausbonsai, and someone
also said Air-pots on another forum.

The observations on the colander and the air-pot and Ausbonsai allowed for the technique
refinement.

The technique is so efficient, that we can produce 3 inch trunks every 1 to 3 years. Depends on the
tree.

Adding on a tile to the colander, gives surface roots.

We will test the resting of the colander on the soil's surface to see what happens.

Also will be testing the J.B.Pine response.

Age however will still take 8 to 10 years for appearance.
Good Day
Anthonyn

 

[sorce]

the whole idea behind air pots and colanders is to prevent encircling roots through air pruning

That idea drives its use...
But it is not the whole idea!

We gotta talk about a "colanders" ability to tunnel roots outside the container.

Most of the colanders I see here are seemingly shitty for the process...except the stainless ones...or the file cabinet basket ones....or the Airpots themselves ..

So I would agree....Most of these colanders wouldn't be very good at all at in OR out of the ground!

But....

In all reality....if circling roots is a problem...
You can make the colander a bit bigger....
And cut them off at a straight section like we would anyway....

The colander just gives your core stability...
A line to safely cut tree out of the ground around.

That....is the OTHER MAIN IDEA here.

But these folks DO have to stop using shitty dollar store colanders!

I third @Dav4 ....
Best to excersize that ever needed bonsai attribute....

Observation!

Besides....
Everything you read says those soil kits are worthless....
And if you really want to know...
Take it to your local ...blah blah....

And that's for farmers who MUST not have any variance...

Sorce