JesusFreak
Shohin
Not sure how it heals or how it grows? Done a little research but there’s some weird branches I need to get rid of. Help? 
First Japanese Larch...
- Thread starter JesusFreak
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Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
This is grafted? Special cultivar?
JesusFreak
Shohin
No ordered it from conifer kingdom online. It’s Larix k. “Paper lanterns” to be specific.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
I'd plant it in something larger....or the ground....and let that bitch gain some girth!
AJL
Chumono
Yes it certainly looks grafted! Its a special cultivar and you can see the graft union.( possibly whip and tongue)
It looks healthy so should be pretty much able to survive reasonable formative pruning, just dont go crazy, and do make clean cuts with sharp pruners!
Hard to judge current size but it needs to be outdoors and grown on, ideally in the ground or a box for 2- 3 years to thicken up
It looks healthy so should be pretty much able to survive reasonable formative pruning, just dont go crazy, and do make clean cuts with sharp pruners!
Hard to judge current size but it needs to be outdoors and grown on, ideally in the ground or a box for 2- 3 years to thicken up
JesusFreak
Shohin
Thanks fellas. Y’all think it can turn into a good tree?
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
I do.
Its got a bit of movement at the juncture....and the bark looks the same top and bottom.
I'd grow it out for a while if it was mine.
JesusFreak
Shohin
Would you cut off the little graft stub at the top and there in the middle
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Yup....
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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'Paper Lanterns' is a named variety (cultivar or clone) of Japanese Larch, Larix kaempferi, the only way this clone is propagated commercially is by grafting. It is a nice variety, noted for being tall, narrow and being a heavy cone producer. It grows 7 to 10 inches a year, which is considered about "normal" for Larch. This is not a dwarf, it can be sized up to any size you need in a normal human's lifespan.
Grafted trees can be very good for bonsai, but they require special handling. Looking at the Conifer Kingdom website, if you did not read the details in the "about Plants and Pots Sizes" they do not say that their trees are grafted, except in the fine print under that heading. The #1, 6 to 9 inches, is probably 3 years post grafting, if the information in the "What do these sizes mean?" is correct.
The first trick to using grafted plants is to remember that the in the first year, these typical cleft graft will be barely stitched together. Bumping, vibration, freeze-thaw cycling in winter and any attempt to wire across the graft union can very easily separate the graft union, resulting in death of the scion. Second year is usually considerably more stable than the first year.
Usually by the end of the third growing season (year) the graft union has healed deep enough that it can be exposed to a normal winter. Still the graft is a weak point in the trunk, any wire across the graft union, depending on the bends you are attempting to create will put pressure on the graft and risk breaking the graft union. Until a graft union is over 5 years old do not even put wire across the union, even if only to anchor the wire, as the risk of putting pressure across the graft is always there.
About year 10, in most grafted trees, the graft union will be fully healed, and in most trees the union will begin to "disappear", and become hard to detect. It normally takes 20 or more years for graft unions to be totally invisible, but they become less and less obvious as the tree ages. The union itself will always be a weak point, but after year 10, one does not need to be as cautious, as long as one does not deliberately put pressure across the graft. Never try to "add movement" by bending at the point of the graft union.
The good news, with the scion 'Paper Lanterns' being of a more rapid, near normal growth rate for larch, the healing of the graft union should progress more rapidly once the tree puts on some bulk. And it should happen more quickly. You might not be able to tell it was grafted in as little as 10 years.
Actions I would recommend.
1. cut the little bit of green off on that stub from the understock. Do not try to cut the stub flush, if you have to put any pressure at all in forcing your tool in there. Wedging a diagonal cutters into the space between the stub and the scion can be enough to break the graft. Let the stub remain another 2 or 3 years, then you can cut flush. Just don't let any buds on the understock grow and develop as they will be "normal" larch understock, which might be Larix decidua, European Larch, rather than Japanese Larch. Usually commercial grafters will use one understock for all members of the same genus, regardless of which species the scion wood is.
2. If it were mine, I would put it in the "grow out bed" or a large container for growing out. You need enough growth to at least double, or triple the diameter of the trunk. Only by increasing the diameter of the trunk will the graft union heal and get stable. Also, a larger diameter trunk lends itself to an older looking bonsai.
3. For the 2020 growing season, I would do no pruning. Just transplant to your grow out container, then let it grow. In late summer, you can do some light pruning, but take off less than 25% of the foliage, you need growth. You can wire anytime late summer through winter. But while wiring be cognizant of the delicate nature of the graft union.
4. Repeat the pattern for 2021 growing season, limited pruning mainly in late summer, gentle with the wiring, encourage escape branches, escape leaders, you want the trunk to bulk up. Pruning off branches works against bulking up the trunk.
5. By 2022 or 2023 the tree might be ready for the very first styling. Or it might not. By this time you should have the experience (through this and other trees you own) to see a plan for the tree. At this point, year 5 or 6 post grafting the graft union will be much more stable. Now is the time you can be somewhat aggressive cleaning up any stub left over on the graft union. At this point you should have a good idea whether the graft union will become invisible in the future.
All in all, you have a nice piece of raw stock. I would be happy having it to grow out in my garden. Nice choice of cultivar. It will grow enough that "bonsai" will be possible in a normal lifespan.
Grafted trees can be very good for bonsai, but they require special handling. Looking at the Conifer Kingdom website, if you did not read the details in the "about Plants and Pots Sizes" they do not say that their trees are grafted, except in the fine print under that heading. The #1, 6 to 9 inches, is probably 3 years post grafting, if the information in the "What do these sizes mean?" is correct.
The first trick to using grafted plants is to remember that the in the first year, these typical cleft graft will be barely stitched together. Bumping, vibration, freeze-thaw cycling in winter and any attempt to wire across the graft union can very easily separate the graft union, resulting in death of the scion. Second year is usually considerably more stable than the first year.
Usually by the end of the third growing season (year) the graft union has healed deep enough that it can be exposed to a normal winter. Still the graft is a weak point in the trunk, any wire across the graft union, depending on the bends you are attempting to create will put pressure on the graft and risk breaking the graft union. Until a graft union is over 5 years old do not even put wire across the union, even if only to anchor the wire, as the risk of putting pressure across the graft is always there.
About year 10, in most grafted trees, the graft union will be fully healed, and in most trees the union will begin to "disappear", and become hard to detect. It normally takes 20 or more years for graft unions to be totally invisible, but they become less and less obvious as the tree ages. The union itself will always be a weak point, but after year 10, one does not need to be as cautious, as long as one does not deliberately put pressure across the graft. Never try to "add movement" by bending at the point of the graft union.
The good news, with the scion 'Paper Lanterns' being of a more rapid, near normal growth rate for larch, the healing of the graft union should progress more rapidly once the tree puts on some bulk. And it should happen more quickly. You might not be able to tell it was grafted in as little as 10 years.
Actions I would recommend.
1. cut the little bit of green off on that stub from the understock. Do not try to cut the stub flush, if you have to put any pressure at all in forcing your tool in there. Wedging a diagonal cutters into the space between the stub and the scion can be enough to break the graft. Let the stub remain another 2 or 3 years, then you can cut flush. Just don't let any buds on the understock grow and develop as they will be "normal" larch understock, which might be Larix decidua, European Larch, rather than Japanese Larch. Usually commercial grafters will use one understock for all members of the same genus, regardless of which species the scion wood is.
2. If it were mine, I would put it in the "grow out bed" or a large container for growing out. You need enough growth to at least double, or triple the diameter of the trunk. Only by increasing the diameter of the trunk will the graft union heal and get stable. Also, a larger diameter trunk lends itself to an older looking bonsai.
3. For the 2020 growing season, I would do no pruning. Just transplant to your grow out container, then let it grow. In late summer, you can do some light pruning, but take off less than 25% of the foliage, you need growth. You can wire anytime late summer through winter. But while wiring be cognizant of the delicate nature of the graft union.
4. Repeat the pattern for 2021 growing season, limited pruning mainly in late summer, gentle with the wiring, encourage escape branches, escape leaders, you want the trunk to bulk up. Pruning off branches works against bulking up the trunk.
5. By 2022 or 2023 the tree might be ready for the very first styling. Or it might not. By this time you should have the experience (through this and other trees you own) to see a plan for the tree. At this point, year 5 or 6 post grafting the graft union will be much more stable. Now is the time you can be somewhat aggressive cleaning up any stub left over on the graft union. At this point you should have a good idea whether the graft union will become invisible in the future.
All in all, you have a nice piece of raw stock. I would be happy having it to grow out in my garden. Nice choice of cultivar. It will grow enough that "bonsai" will be possible in a normal lifespan.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Leo, you forgot the bad news. The string of lanterns are arrayed at the very tips of branches. That is probably peachy keen for a big tree with branches 20 feet long, but for bonsai will be problematic, even if possible. The tips of the branches hang down on a big tree because they are long, but on a scaled-down tree they will stick straight out, or worse. On a scale of one to ten: 2
WNC Bonsai
Omono
You guys have overlooked the big problem—this tree is now located in zone 8, southern Georgia—a death sentence for Japanese larch!
JesusFreak
Shohin
Oh no. It said they’re good from 5-8 on info that I received from Conifer Kingdom
WNC Bonsai
Omono
I’ve seen 4-6 and 4-7 but never zone 8. You may find it difficult to keep them cold enough in winter and cool enough in summers down in Tifton. That place can be like a desert in the summer time, even the streams dry up 6 months of the year. You will have to keep them out of the hot summer sun and water, water, water. I lost 3 up here in the mountains last August when I accidentally left them in the hot summer sun too long. your best bet would be Golden Larch as they are supposed to be more heat and humidity tolerant.
JesusFreak
Shohin
Well dang. It does get hot here. I’m pretty meticulous when it comes to taking care of my plants. I just bought to Japanese white Pines too. I guessing you’re gonna tell me that was a waste of money too ?
WNC Bonsai
Omono
For those most sources say zone 4-7 but a couple say 4-9. It may depend on the specific cultivars. Also, pay attention to the heat zone. You are in an area that gets 120-150 days over 86 degrees per year.
JesusFreak
Shohin
If I keep them out of scorching heat and water consistently then I should be fine right
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm growing JWP in summers over 40C and winters where nights only just get below freezing (occasional -4C). They may not be growing to full potential but are growing.
One grower in my area also has Japanese larch which grows and produces cones. There are more growing in Melbourne area which as cooler summers but warmer winters. Zonal recommendations are only guidelines at best and sometimes wildly inaccurate.
The best way forward is to see how they go but I would probably avoid full summer sun for the larch.
One grower in my area also has Japanese larch which grows and produces cones. There are more growing in Melbourne area which as cooler summers but warmer winters. Zonal recommendations are only guidelines at best and sometimes wildly inaccurate.
The best way forward is to see how they go but I would probably avoid full summer sun for the larch.
WNC Bonsai
Omono
The Japanese larch is supposed to be better at handling heat than the American larch so it is worth a try. At this time of year they can take more sun but I plan to move mine into partial shade once it starts to heat up and the sun gets moe intense. Ryan Neil has said that larch move a lot of water as a means for natural cooling so shade plus water may make the difference for you. Let us know how it works out for you so we can add to the knowledge base.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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I've seen plenty of larch producing cones ( the "paper lanterns" ) without their branches running beyond the profile of the bonsai. One such tree is in the permanent bonsai collection at the Lynden Sculpture Garden, it is a 50 years or more in training tree. Yes, Japanese larch tend to "weep" with their longer branches. If one wants to mimic that, all one needs to do is wire the branches. But most American larch do not have a weeping habit, and if the OP wants to mimic one of the other styles that American and other larches take, he is free to do so. WIre goes a long way to styling a tree.
I believe he will see cones produced in a fairly young tree. It might have to be larger than it currently is, but I do not see cone production as "unlikely or impossible".
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