Foliar feeding

[DaveV]

Tom, I noticed you are using fish emulsion for foliar feeding. Is this because you found it worked best or have you tried diluted inorganic fertilizers (your average NPK ferts) as a foliar feed. The reason I am asking is because most of the specialty foliar fertilizers that I have ran across are kelp/seaweed or fish emulsion based ferts.

Why do your junipers green up for just a short time?

 

[Smoke]

I am not casting stones at you, just challenging your science with foliar feeding and it being enhance by what you put in the soil, I am open minded enough to grow and discover.

Yes, San Lo, I go there all the time and in fact just bought that stuff you were probably starring at the other day, Jon and Bobs soil optimizer which is humic and fulvic acid in pellet form. I spread this on top of the soil on all of my container plants. This was 2 weeks ago. I do know the benefits of these acids and believe in them strongly, especially in rocky soil. I am shure they are doing there part.

but

would I be seing the same growth w/o them? I may never know. This is like the superthrive argument In which you did do some good testing in. I too have been known to sneak over and buy some ST for tree's that I have done heavy root work on, I have also not used it.

I can tell that my soil structure is changing in the last 2 weeks, like a webb patina or a spongy feel to the surface. Could be accelerated myc growth. I gotta tell you though I cant tell you I am getting stronger, faster and better growth.

It's allot of work workin that spray bottle

Yea Bob is a good friend of mine out there on highland ave. in Fresno. Myc growth is an accelerated by product of the process. I think you may be missing some points on humic acids role in the fertlizer process and what goes on under the soil having huge benifits for the green part on top of the soil.

I have done no testing on superthrive.

As far as the spray bottle, give it up for root feeding, it is easier and yeilds the same results. The big deal with foliar feeding is that there are those that say it doesn't work. It does, and humic acid makes it work even better, but it is another process that is not necessary.

 

[Vance Wood]

While I agree that to a limited extent this method works, a few points while beating this dead horse.

A note to the admin, you need some animated dead horse beating emicons like they have over at Arborsite.


Humic acid is the best thing since skimmed milk but how does this have anything to do with how plants take in nutrients through their leaf.

With broad leaf plants one must spray under the leaf for it to do any good. Their are no stomata on the top of the leaf, and no way for anything to get in except light.

In my climate during this time of year I really do not want any water on the leafs of most stuff especially pines. The only thing I am spraying now is Draconil, Neem Oil and BT for leafrollers.
Fungus this year is rampant with all they humidity and lack of sun.

...something to think about.

If you do everything right down below I do not think you need to foliar feed, just my o2. And if you need to feed on top because something aint right down below than you need to adjust what is going on down low, ya know.

It's only a dead horse if you were around when it died. To someone else thinking to buy a saddle----?

 

[FourMileMarc]

Maybe I got my Al's wrong. Sorry if it was some kind of mistake. I got the wrong Al, the bonsai thing threw me off with the Superthrive.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg031955499481.html

I am all for the Humic's and Fulvics in allowing a better CEC in the soil as well as allowing more availability to nutrients in the soil by the plant. That is in the soil by the rootsjust so there is no misunderstanding here, I am talking about how this enhances foliar feeding, I do not think it possibly can.

The fact that a species of plant takes in nutrients through the leaf has only to do with the species of plant (if at all in practicable amounts). And I do not believe that anything you put in the soil will affect the ability to absorb nutrients through the leaf .

 

[FourMileMarc]

BTW I am not trying to be a Dick. I just want to know if it is really worth pumping a spray bottle for an hour strait.

 

[Vance Wood]

BTW I am not trying to be a Dick. I just want to know if it is really worth pumping a spray bottle for an hour strait.

Use a hose sprayer.

 

[FourMileMarc]

I do, but that is for the soil.It happens to also get on the leaf

 

[DaveV]

FourMileMarc,

I can see how it doesn't make sense to you that by treating the roots with humic acid or some other compound,can influence plant physiology at the level of the leaf. Well, I can't answer that either, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. What we currently understand about humic acid is that it holds onto nutrients so the roots have better access to it. It could also have other properties that we don't know about. For example, when we step on a nail that messages has to go to our head and back down our leg in order for us to move our foot away from that nail (sorry for the poor example). That's what science and experimentation is all about.

 

[greerhw]

BTW I am not trying to be a Dick. I just want to know if it is really worth pumping a spray bottle for an hour strait.

Damn, how many trees do you have anyway, it takes me about ten minutes !

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Mortalis]

I was lucky in that I was interested in hydroponics and learned about humic acid years ago. Really nearly every hydro fertilizer is fortified with it. I have to say something I have said before hydroponic fertilizers tend to be more complete and can be used very effectively on soil. I use hydroponics to grow my trunks up faster. I have done similar experiments to the one done by Jerry Meislik on his website with similar results except that I use Deep water culture instead of flood and drain.

 

[DaveV]

Mortalis,

Are you saying you use hydroponics to grow trees? Thats interesting. I have often wondered if it would work well to use hydroponics on cuttings.

 

[davetree]

What species are you growing hydroponically ?

 

[Smoke]

The fact that a species of plant takes in nutrients through the leaf has only to do with the species of plant (if at all in practicable amounts). And I do not believe that anything you put in the soil will affect the ability to absorb nutrients through the leaf .

Maybe we get stuck on the fact that what is "practical amounts".

Is it practical to feed you bonsai by foliar feeding alone?

NO.

Is it practical to say the Foliar feeding does not work?

NO.

Is it practical to say that foliar feeding may have a place in bonsai to help make a plant more attractive before an exhibit or to add beneficial fertilizers for blooming purposes?

YES.

In this case there is no myth. Plants can take up nutrients as well as poisons on their leaves. Humates can accelerate this process. Humates can and should be mixed with the fertilizer before being applied to the leaves.


http://previsemanufacturing.com/LHC/LHC.htm


Just google "humates and foliar feeding" thre are hundreds of sites that can explain the benefits of this stuff. All I know is that it works, but you have to be religious about it. Small doses very often. If one is not a regular fertlizer than humates will never be of any use.

 

[FourMileMarc]

exerpt from:

http://previsemanufacturing.com/LHC/LHC.htm


Foliar Feeding vs Soil Applied Humates

Humic Acid (soil applied or foliar) will stimulate plant root and top growth. The effects of foliar applied Humic Acid overlap with soil applied Humates. Some benefits are best obtained by foliar applications, while others can be accomplished by soil applications. Both are needed for best performance on soils of low to moderate fertility & organic matter levels.



What do foliar applied Humic Acids do compared to soil applied Humates? Both soil and foliar applied Humates will make plant roots more efficient at absorbing the nutrients already in the soil solution; stimulate top and root growth, and chlorophyll production. Foliar applied Humic Acids will do a better job of providing modest protection against foliar diseases, if left on leaves, and applied regularly over the growing season. Foliar applied liquid Humates will do a better job of reducing transpiration water losses and provide a better environment for good microorganisms on leaf surfaces than soil applied Humates. Effective foliar amounts applied are small: 2.5 -10 lbs./acre (0.25 – 1.0 gallons/acre), can be done at once to three times a season for continuous benefits.



Foliar applied liquid Humic Acid will not make soil nutrients much more available - there just isn't enough applied to do the job. Soil applied LHC will increase nutrient availability, because they are applied at rates from about 10 lbs./acre to 50 lbs./acre.



Soil applied Humates do a much better job stimulating the soil microorganisms that compete with or antagonize plant pathogenic microorganisms, and significantly increase soil structure or aeration at the rates applied.



LHC does have humin - the solid stuff that normally does not go into solution. Humin molecules are huge, and hold lots of water, never leach away, and, like Humic Acids, can bind and prevent the leaching and reduce the toxicities of fat-soluble compounds (like oils and some pesticides). LHC humin is predigested to reduce their molecular size, which improves their availability to microorganisms and root systems.


Maybe I did not understand that you were talking about Foliar applied Humates. I was refering to Foliar applied fertilizer minus humates (like miracle grow or fish) and your claim that humates in the soil increased intake of the latter. We may have been talking about 2 different things. Sounds like this superfeeding program uses a product for the leaf that has NPK + humates in solution. Maybe a different story.

Thank you Al

Marc

BTW I thought that was you that did that highly scientific Superthrive test

 

[Mark59]

I just finished reading an article in our local bonsai cluds news letter. The topic was on foliar feeding. It said that plants utilize 90% of the fertilizer when applied on the foliage and only 10% when applied on the soil. I know that some people foliar feed and others don't. For those that do foliar feed, have you noticed any dramatic changes in your trees apperance/health since you started foliar feeding?

Dave; I have foliar fed my junipers this year and I have never seen such a dramatic shade of green. I have alternated fish fert., fish seaweed and fish emulsion. I've used Bio Gold pellets for the first time this year as well but I believe its the foliar feeding thats making the difference.

 

[FourMileMarc]

You can also spray oil's or "plant shine" on them and it will have the same effect. Did you see an objective increase in vigor?

 

[bretts]

Fourmile
Have a go at reading some of the articles here and see if that sets of any lights. Different qualities to the soil affect the the tree in many ways such as cell walls ability to absorb chemicals and such things as opening or closing stomata's.
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/?paged=2

 

[Smoke]

Supertrive? no testing done by me. At repotting time I just add one teaspoon of baby vitimins in a gallon of water and soak in that while I prepare the pot for repotting. I have not lost a tree due to repotting in over 12 years.

I have a lost a few trees to unpotting taken care of by jays and squirrels.

Cheers, Al

 

[Mark59]

I have a lost a few trees to unpotting taken care of by jays and squirrels.

Cheers, Al[/QUOTE]

I despise those little b#$@%rds! Every year I try rape seed cake fertilizer and they (squirrels) haul it away like its going out of style and that stuff is expensive. I've tried the fertilizer baskets with the 2 inch spikes and they make mince meat out of them.

 

[FourMileMarc]

I must say I am being more and more impressed with this stuff. Just today I came home and in the afternoon sunlight I am seeing sheens of blue green I have never seen before. After about 6 beers that is!

No just kidding.

I saw the sheens of colors before the beers, really!.

No really, I have read much on the benefits of this stuff and am currently using it. Color and vigor seem enhanced but they allways seem to enhance here around this time of year. The physical soil structure is the most noticable improvement and it is big time. It's like looking at those rice crispy treats you used to eat as a kid, except one consolodated mass of rice crispy treat. I am shure this is a fantastic benefit to the soil structure.

I'll buy more for the soil, but probably will not take the time to work the bottle unless it's catapillar killin time. That may change, and probably will, Al has planted the seed in my head and when I get a bung up my arse I may try out a foliar session or two and report back.