Full Moon Maple Development

[Hack Yeah!]

I like your tree! I'd probably just try to put it in a large grow box and work the nebari for a few years before trying a layer. Maybe graft a lower branch?

 

[ABCarve]

This is my pictorial of the ground layer. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[namnhi]

This is my pictorial of the ground layer. Keep your fingers crossed.
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This dude has tools and work ethic on doing the 'correct' layering. Best of luck to you. This fit the go big or go home slogan!

 

[james]

Nice work. That ground layer photo essay very informative. Where did you source the plastic disc material? Buy a layer sheet, and cut to size? That will make separation and developing root spread a snap.

 

[Pitoon]

@ABCarve I'm really interested to see how the roots come out. If you get a 360 spread of roots that tree is going to be badass!

 

[ABCarve]

Nice work. That ground layer photo essay very informative. Where did you source the plastic disc material? Buy a layer sheet, and cut to size? That will make separation and developing root spread a snap.

Tupperware lid

 

[andrewiles]

Is it normal in a ground layer to carve that much of the sapwood out?

 

[ABCarve]

Is it normal in a ground layer to carve that much of the sapwood out?

Once you get through the layers of living tissue it doesn’t matter how deep you go. Remember it’s just going to be sawn through completely in the end.

 

[Rivian]

Once you get through the layers of living tissue it doesn’t matter how deep you go. Remember it’s just going to be sawn through completely in the end.

What do you mean? The sapwood feeds the top with moisture. Its the difference between airlayer and a big cutting

 

[ABCarve]

What do you mean? The sapwood feeds the top with moisture. Its the difference between airlayer and a big cutting

That’s a really good observation. I’ve often wondered that myself. This is about the 5th ground layer I’ve done and proportionally fairly shallow compared to the others. All have been successful. I’ve seen the “big cutting” work numerous times. Maybe @0soyoung could shed some light on the subject. This is one of his threads.
Thread 'Anatomy of an Air Layer'
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/anatomy-of-an-air-layer.15507/
I’m consider the chances on this one about 50/50 as I’ve read conflicting statements on the species viability for air layer.

 

[Pitoon]

That’s a really good observation. I’ve often wondered that myself. This is about the 5th ground layer I’ve done and proportionally fairly shallow compared to the others. All have been successful. I’ve seen the “big cutting” work numerous times. Maybe @0soyoung could shed some light on the subject. This is one of his threads.
Thread 'Anatomy of an Air Layer'
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/anatomy-of-an-air-layer.15507/

@ABCarve was/is the tree dormant when you started this? I have plans for two Tridents I have in the ground I would like to try this method on to get a good root spread.

 

[ABCarve]

@ABCarve was/is the tree dormant when you started this? I have plans for two Tridents I have in the ground I would like to try this method on to get a good root spread.

Buds were starting to swell. I have a witch hazel I’m going to do that I’m going going to wait for the leaves to harden off. I’ve read they can take 18 months to develop.

 

[BobbyLane]

That’s a really good observation. I’ve often wondered that myself. This is about the 5th ground layer I’ve done and proportionally fairly shallow compared to the others. All have been successful. I’ve seen the “big cutting” work numerous times. Maybe @0soyoung could shed some light on the subject. This is one of his threads.
Thread 'Anatomy of an Air Layer'
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/anatomy-of-an-air-layer.15507/
I’m consider the chances on this one about 50/50 as I’ve read conflicting statements on the species viability for air layer.

thats interesting, ive never seen anyone go that deep before, it looks like you could of got the same effect with large knob cutters. ive only ever attempted one layer and it failed so im no expert, but just thought it was interesting and different. i like the go hard or go home approach though, its part of my dna

 

[0soyoung]

Once you get through the layers of living tissue it doesn’t matter how deep you go. Remember it’s just going to be sawn through completely in the end.

What do you mean? The sapwood feeds the top with moisture. Its the difference between airlayer and a big cutting

Indeed. The sapwood is what makes the difference between an airlayer and a big cutting. However, on our trees, all of the wood is sapwood. Heartwood arises when the stem becomes so thick that sufficient oxygen can no longer get to those tissues --> then die and the xylem lumens get stuffed full of 'stuff'.

Nevertheless, I always pucker when I see people digging away so much wood - it is just not right ! Even though it doesn't matter much (because xylem lumens (the little tubes in the series of tubes) are interconnected in such a way that water can move between rings), it is unnecessary. The key thing is disruption/removal of the cambium. One can apply a wire tourniquet or can girdle a stem to accomplish this. When we girdle a stem there are some cambium cells (xylem initials) left on the surface of the wood that can reproduce everything that was just removed (i.e., cause bridging). One only needs to scrape these off but sometimes this is easier said than done. So, one can simply walk away leaving it exposed to open air for a day or two (desiccation of any xylem initials) or thoroughly rub down the exposed wood with an alcohol wipe (70% or more isopropyl) instead of carving away a bunch of wood.

Again, the key is simply disrupting the cambium, however you do it.


btw. Since the phloem is also disrupted, the roots of a ground layer are no longer fed. They live solely on stored carbohydrates and when they are gone, the roots die.

 

[ABCarve]

thats interesting, ive never seen anyone go that deep before, it looks like you could of got the same effect with large knob cutters. ive only ever attempted one layer and it failed so im no expert, but just thought it was interesting and different. i like the go hard or go home approach though, its part of my dna

. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.

 

[0soyoung]

thats interesting, ive never seen anyone go that deep before, it looks like you could of got the same effect with large knob cutters. ive only ever attempted one layer and it failed so im no expert, but just thought it was interesting and different. i like the go hard or go home approach though, its part of my dna

Actually, 'worse' has been posted here (on BNut) before.


... not meaning to 'dig' at my friend.

 

[ABCarve]

btw. Since the phloem is also disrupted, the roots of a ground layer are no longer fed. They live solely on stored carbohydrates and when they are gone, the roots die.

Thanks that’s very informative. However, I’m not totally following this part. I confused with what the consequences.

 

[0soyoung]

The phloem or inner bark (that carries carbohydrates down the tree from the foliage factories) is no longer connected to the roots = no more groceries coming to the roots. If there was foliage below the girdle, then the roots would continue to be fed = this is the risk with a ground layer.

Every living cell in the tree stores carbohydrates as starch grains in the vacuoles of those cells. These reserves are converted back into sugars that are then used to continue the life processes (metabolism, and etc.). Also, the flow of auxin to the roots is reduced. Not enough auxin and roots quit growing.

In my experience, roots have enough reserves to last between 1 and 2 years (i.e., my failed ground layers suddenly collapsed in the middle of the second growing season).

 

[ABCarve]

The phloem or inner bark (that carries carbohydrates down the tree from the foliage factories) is no longer connected to the roots = no more groceries coming to the roots. If there was foliage below the girdle, then the roots would continue to be fed = this is the risk with a ground layer.

Every living cell in the tree stores carbohydrates as starch grains in the vacuoles of those cells. These reserves are converted back into sugars that are then used to continue the life processes (metabolism, and etc.). Also, the flow of auxin to the roots is reduced. Not enough auxin and roots quit growing.

In my experience, roots have enough reserves to last between 1 and 2 years (i.e., my failed ground layers suddenly collapsed in the middle of the second growing season).

So the new roots ( layer) aren’t contributing to the starch grains? Or they are not making enough to sustain the tree?

 

[ABCarve]

Another question. For the examples of the”big cutting”, is the remaining part of the trunk just holding the tree in place so the roots don’t get jostled and break off?