Fully Inorganic Mix Method

[777thSunRay]

I would like to know more about the method described in this link from another thread: This guy (that's the link haha)

I'm sure many on the forum are familiar with this concept. It's basically the idea that with the right (essentially) fully inorganic mix, you can use an aggressive watering and fertilizing schedule, I presume to boost growth.

What I'd like to know is, are vermiculite and/or perlite suitable for this kind of mix? Of course they are inorganic, but I'm thinking perhaps the small particle size, and the fact they can break down, will not render the same kind of advantage as pumice, lava rocks, etc.

Also, what about using a solid time release fertilizer like Microlife with this setup? I would think one would have to use some lava rocks to hold the fertilizer, as pumice is not porous like lava rocks. It's also advised in the link that sphagnum moss and, I'm thinking, wood chips, are organics which are okay to use; same concept, wicking away excess moisture quickly, while retaining enough moisture and holding liquid and solid fertilizer..

I especially would like answers to my first question, to know what folks think about using the vermiculite or perlite with this method. And if so, in what kind of proportions? (I imagine relatively small). Thanks in advance!

 

[River's Edge]

Have you contacted @Walter Pall directly to discuss his concepts and your desire to know more about his methods?

 

[777thSunRay]

Have you contacted @Walter Pall directly to discuss his concepts and your desire to know more about his methods?

Oh, thank you for the idea! I did not know he was on the forum.

 

[OMGCamCole]

Perlite is very lightweight, it eventually ends up floating to the surface of the pot, or blows away with the wind when dry.

I have used it before when I had nothing else, and it works, I did end up having to add a better material later once most of it rose to the surface/blew out of the pot though.

All that said, pure perlite can be used, or used as an additive. This thread might be helpful:

pure perlite

I've been reading a lot about soil/substrate for a long time. All the articles, threads, debates, etc. I have seen people who root cuttings in 100% perlite. I have seen where people have grown bonsai in 100% pumice with success.. Or collected trees. Can i plant a ficus in 100% perlite and...

www.bonsainut.com

I have heard of pure perlite being used to grow cuttings quite often though

 

[dbonsaiw]

Discussions of bonsai substrate are typically never-ending rabbit holes that inevitably provide a ton of very high level details without offering us newbies any kind of actual guidance. Walter Pall (who is active on this site) not only has great trees, but I personally appreciate his disposition and his discussions on various bonsai topics, including soil. I very much appreciate that Mr. Pall tries to keep it simple and conceptual in his soil descriptions. As he points out, there are myriads of acceptable soil recipes, and no soil mix is "best". What you are looking for is water retention, aeration and drainage, and many substrates can provide this for you. Just stay far away from potting soil and you're off to a good start.

Much to my surprise, tree roots don't actually like sitting in muddy water. Roots need to breath and take in oxygen, which they can't do while drowning in water. What you want is for the water to go into your soil and drain right out. When it drains out, it will pull oxygen into the spaces in your soil. You want to create a condition where the soil dries out rather quick so you can water again and infuse new oxygen into the soil. You could accomplish this with river rocks, but you will then have zero water retention and your tree will die. So we look to substrates that absorb/hold a modicum of water that can be released when the soil starts to dry. Volcanic products are ideal for this - lava rock, pumice, perlite etc. As are non-potting soil organics (like bark) - although this will hold more water. The ideal is not to have water sitting in your pot. Rather, the condition you are shooting for is more of a humid one where there is available moisture for the roots without a puddle of water.

An optimal substrate not only keeps your tree alive and healthy, it also assists in creating the type of root system we want for bonsai - fine feeder roots. In proper bonsai soil, root tips will split upon contact with the sharp edges of the substrate causing it to ramify and create more fine feeder roots. A large mass of fine feeder roots is required for the tree to function efficiently in a small pot.

I just don't like the feel of vermiculite and don't use it. It's a personal thing. Perlite is a fine substrate, although it is very lightweight and will float when watered. I very much like Bonsai Jack's universal bonsai mix - he has it in organic and inorganic. I buy it in the largest size so I save some coin. People swear by Boon's mix (I believe this is totally inorganic). I stay away from the nursery shop bonsai mixes that contain way too much sphagnum moss. I've found that getting a bonsai mix that works for your trees in your climate isn't rocket science - just pick one and run with it. Optimizing your soil is a whole other animal and I'm not sure that folks will be able to advise you on what is optimal - there are just too many variables that go into this and you will need to experiment to find the optimal for your tree in your micro-climate, for your watering/feeding routine.

Optimizing your soil will also require you to consider the stage of development. A tree in development will do just fine in inorganic mix provided the right care, but is this ideal for you? You will get a wide range of opinions, with many (including myself) opting to include at least some organics for developing trees (I use 20% pine bark and 80% inorganic).

As Mr. Pall points out, soil is inextricably intertwined with watering and feeding. Keep in mind that an entirely inorganic mix will need to be watered more often, perhaps multiple times a day. On a hot summer day while you're at work, your tree could just throw in the towel in inorganic mix (the addition of moss on top helps). Organics will hold more water and give you time to get to watering again.

 

[777thSunRay]

I actually went back to the blog page, and found the answer to my initial question haha

Thank you guys, for all the valuable information! It seems to me that vermiculite and perlite can break down, and don't seem to aerate as they are said to. Is this correct? So I know potting soil is not for Bonsai, but what about something like Miracle Gro Cactus Mix, can it work well? I use this with pumice added, for now, but I would still like quicker draining. Should I switch from the Miracle Gro, or should I use different amendments and/or proportions with it instead? Though in any case I definitely want to start experimenting with Walter Pall's method.

@ dbonsaiw I'm curious, would you please let me know where you buy your Bonsai Jack's mix?

As far as sharp points helping fine root development, what substrates accomplish this? I am thinking lave rocks, maybe wood chips, even coconut coir (possibly better than sphagnum?)... anything else?

I am curious about one more thing... I bought two Gumbo Dwarf Azaleas recently. They have a curious substrate. It seems like almost a black wax. Strangely enough, when watered the water just runs right through it. I found this very interesting. The grower told me it was a result of the compost they use. It seems to me this could be a good option, too. Does anyone have an idea of how this is done?

 

[777thSunRay]

I actually went back to the blog page, and found the answer to my initial question haha

Thank you guys, for all the valuable information! It seems to me that vermiculite and perlite can break down, and don't seem to aerate as they are said to. Is this correct? So I know potting soil is not for Bonsai, but what about something like Miracle Gro Cactus Mix, can it work well? I use this with pumice added, for now, but I would still like quicker draining. Should I switch from the Miracle Gro, or should I use different amendments and/or proportions with it instead? Though in any case I definitely want to start experimenting with Walter Pall's method.

@ dbonsaiw I'm curious, would you please let me know where you buy your Bonsai Jack's mix?

As far as sharp points helping fine root development, what substrates accomplish this? I am thinking lave rocks, maybe wood chips, even coconut coir (possibly better than sphagnum?)... anything else?

I am curious about one more thing... I bought two Gumbo Dwarf Azaleas recently. They have a curious substrate. It seems like almost a black wax. Strangely enough, when watered the water just runs right through it. I found this very interesting. The grower told me it was a result of the compost they use. It seems to me this could be a good option, too. Does anyone have an idea of how this is done?

Apologies for the typos...

@dbonsaiw... I'm curious, would you please let me know where you buy your Bonsai Jack's mix?

And they're Gumpo* Dwarf Azaleas

 

[dbonsaiw]

Miracle grow is potting soil. It retains too much water.

Funny enough, I get my bonsai jack soil from bonsaijack.com.

 

[Deleted member 32750]

the best bonsai advice I have heard on this forum is to find someone who’s trees and like and do what they do. The same goes for soil mixtures.

 

[Carol 83]

I'm curious, would you please let me know where you buy your Bonsai Jack's mix?

Amazon carries it, so free shipping if you have Prime.

 

[777thSunRay]

Okay got it. Others on the forum have said that it can work well, but from my experience, I tend to agree with your assessment of Miracle Gro.

Haha okay, I was wondering because I've seen Bonsai Jack on Amazon. They don't have large packages. So does it drain very well? How often are you watering during hot weather? I would like to have more frequent watering and faster growth than with my current mix.

Thanks again!

 

[777thSunRay]

Amazon carries it, so free shipping if you have Prime.

Cool! I've got Prime. Thank you!

 

[dbonsaiw]

So I know potting soil is not for Bonsai, but what about something like Miracle Gro Cactus Mix, can it work well?

Whatever bonsai soil you end up using, it will look like gravel or kitty litter, nothing like the stuff you find in the yard.

 

[777thSunRay]

Whatever bonsai soil you end up using, it will look like gravel or kitty litter, nothing like the stuff you find in the yard.

Right of course., I know that much. I was just under the false impression that the Miracle Gro cactus mix was somehow much different to potting soil. I am using lots of pumice, just need to mix it with better options.

On that subject, I'd just like to reiterate this question... As far as sharp points helping fine root development, what substrates accomplish this? I am thinking lave rocks, maybe wood chips, even coconut coir (possibly better than sphagnum?)... anything else?

 

[dbonsaiw]

They don't have large packages. So does it drain very well? How often are you watering during hot weather? I would like to have more frequent watering and faster growth than with my current mix.

On his site he has up to 28 gallons I believe and there are choices. What kind of tree are you looking to develop? This could have a bearing on the type of soil you choose.

As for watering, not gonna lie, still trying to figure this out myself. Hot weather is relative. It's been in the 50s on a good day here and started to go up.

 

[Firstflush]

To the OP. I’m north of you in Westminster/Huntington. We are in a desert. Do not be afraid to have a little more chunky organic material in your soil than is typically recommeded. Watering 2-3 times a day in mid to late summer or when the fall winds come really sucks.

 

[MSU JBoots]

Okay got it. Others on the forum have said that it can work well, but from my experience, I tend to agree with your assessment of Miracle Gro.

Haha okay, I was wondering because I've seen Bonsai Jack on Amazon. They don't have large packages. So does it drain very well? How often are you watering during hot weather? I would like to have more frequent watering and faster growth than with my current mix.

Thanks again!

I’m still in my first year and attempting to get a grip on watering. It’s hit the 80s and sunny here this week. I’ve found myself watering my bonsai jack organic mix often 2x a day. Might honestly need a 3rd but I’m at work so I water before I leave and as soon as I get home. Depends on the pot and the tree. My juniper in my most shallow pot is always most dry of course while the spruce in the larger pot sometimes can skip a second watering it seems, or at least delay it. Not sure if I’m watering too much or too little but that’s my experience thus far with this hot week. I’m actually looking forward to the weather dropping back to the 60s next week.

 

[Potawatomi13]

are vermiculite and/or perlite suitable for this kind of mix?

Not really. They are light weight/float on H20, provide no weight to help anchor tree to bench. Also on surface likely to blow away with wind. Pumice alone is excellent not needing any additives. Shallow pots NOT your friend. Whatever is best for trees/roots health. If not shallow so be it.

"As far as sharp points helping fine root development"?

Utter baloney old wives tale debunked in Bonsai Heresies.

 

[Mikecheck123]

I'm replying simply so that when Walter appears and gives everyone a tongue lashing I will get a notification.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Utter baloney old wives tale debunked in Bonsai Heresies

So what about the dynamics of bonsai soil contributes to the development of feeder roots? Is it just a matter of drainage?

Whatever bonsai soil you end up using, it will look like gravel or kitty litter, nothing like the stuff you find in the yard.

Attached are a few links you may find helpful in better understanding bonsai soil.

Bonsai soil, recommended substrate mixtures - Bonsai Empire

Bonsai substrates The quality of soil used directly affects the health and vigor of your tree. It’s our experience that unhealthy trees that lack vigor, are ver...

www.bonsaiempire.com

The Basics of Bonsai Soil - Basic Bonsai

For many bonsai enthusiasts, their first tree came from a big box store, mall, or roadside stand. Typically, these trees come planted in garden or potting soil, which is not a suitable substrate for vigorous bonsai growth. In this article, we’ll explore why bonsai trees need special bonsai soil...

www.basicbonsai.com

We have been preconditioned to believe that trees (and other plants) should grow in potting soil. When planted in the ground, this makes sense as the roots basically have an infinite amount of space to grow, the tree can anchor itself and, perhaps most importantly, the water table that is formed in ground soil ends up far lower than where the roots can reach (unless you live in my neck of the woods where the water table is shallow). Once you place a tree in a container, you have turned all of this on its head and need to address the new conditions presented by this enclosed space. Ground soil doesn't always produce the best feeder roots, but the tree can make it up in volume by growing these roots along its giant root system. Soil in a container can not only limit the amount of feeder roots per square inch, it also prevents the tree from growing the massive root system needed to efficiently nourish the tree. Whatever the technical answer may be, bonsai soil allows us to produce a far larger feeder root system that allows the tree to function efficiently even in small spaces. Regardless of how large your pot may be (and there are other issues presented by using an oversized pot), the water table formed by the potting soil will never be low enough to be below the roots. The roots will eventually dip into this water table, drown, die and start creating perfect conditions for root rot. With bonsai soil, there is no water table.