Generational Learning

[berobinson82]

Hi. I'm Bernard. I seek understanding and not a pissing match.

This theme is being toyed with on other threads so I wanted to formalize this discussion.

So 30 years ago, in order to learn bonsai, folks had to network and travel great distances and purchase hardcover books and of course learn from their errors in the back yard. They had a sensei and mentors.

Today, a novice can access the lessons of masters and professionals from around the globe without having to take off their camo snuggy. (Go 'Merica!) Of course they purchase books and can have masters and the like as well.

The information age is upon us. The future happened and is still happening. The internet has changed the bonsai culture has it not?

Some questions I'm considering and I hope you do too. Please help me brainstorm.

Are new age students resented by "teachers"?

Has the bonsai environment moved away from master/student to a more level environment where crowd-sourcing dominates the 1on1?

I believe that the new age student DOES acquire information quicker than a student would have 30 years ago. There is more information readily available.

Has the digital age made information more readily available at the cost of the ability to listen to experience.

Do teachers feel less valuable?

Do students fail to see the value in brick and mortar instruction?

I believe some things need to be learned in person and some things are taught best through studying online/books.

I'd love to look at this phenomenom academically rather than interjecting our own prejudice. Anyone care to argue constructively?

There is a divide and we can help bridge it if we understand the dimensions of it.

THis forum has been a lot of fun lately.

 

[Poink88]

Good thread.

People learn differently. It is not just generational it is also true within the current generation. Some need spoon feeding and be guided each step of the way...several times. Others need less. Some work well doing it online...others need brick and mortar instructions.

I always envied my classmates in college who never brought a book, don't take notes, hardly attend lectures but aced all the exams. They are out there and bonsai is no different. I do believe that some people are not over joyed that some are taking the hobby like fish into water (Please I am not talking about me here). For myself, countless times I encountered people who are more restricting than encouraging.

There are however lots more supportive people out there who decide/choose to stay in the shadows. I wish they are more vocal and not just send PM's though.

Ryan Neil for example...lots of people love him...some are intimidated by & hate him.

 

[dick benbow]

As someone who teaches I can confirm that students differ in their ability to learn. Some can take verbal/book learning while others do better with a hands on approach thru repetition.
Also we're dealing with cultures that vary from land to land.
I think it's important for a teacher to be able to recognize each student for how best they are able to grasp the material and then provide that individualized attention.
I always try and visualize the application as If I'm a brick layer. each subsequent row is easier to apply based on the time and effort that went to putting the first row down correctly.
Our club has a new member class this sunday afternoon that I look forward to assisting in.
I'm also a mentor to be assigned to newbees living in the area known as "the south end".
I think the best teachers are those that are continuous students.

 

[Fangorn]

While there may be more information online, the fact that anyone can add to that body of knowledege doesn't make it all that much better. Not everthing you see on the internet is true, and when it comes to made up news and quotes from famous people I believe we are worse off than before.
The bonsai forums are cool and all but I don't think they will ever be as good as "in person" learning with a good teacher

 

[Poink88]

I think the best teachers are those that are continuous students.

Agreed and those who can communicate/relate with the students.

I have a story. On my brother's (M.S. Chem) graduation ceremony, the university President announced that for the first time in the history of the university...he is proud to present the first summa-cum-laude in B.S. Physics and that he accepted a teaching position. Long story short...he is great and knows the subject well but the worst teacher ever. He expects students to learn as fast as he does.

 

[berobinson82]

While there may be more information online, the fact that anyone can add to that body of knowledege doesn't make it all that much better. Not everthing you see on the internet is true, and when it comes to made up news and quotes from famous people I believe we are worse off than before.
The bonsai forums are cool and all but I don't think they will ever be as good as "in person" learning with a good teacher

Yes! Online information is easily added and rarely checked for accuracy. We must be diligent in listening to those artists whose trees we'd like to emulate. Then again, Boon didn't always use his current mix. Pinching junipers, rather than cutting, used to be the norm. So then, a private instructor isn't preaching gospel 100% either. A teacher or mentor, imo, is a great filter of so much conflicting information.

 

[Poink88]

There are times when the experts (say Pall, Boon, Neil, Shaner, Hagedorn, etc.) themselves have different approach/technique. All works great but which is the best?

Mix that with a local instructor who teaches yet another. It is going through their own filter. At least online, you see various ones and decide for yourself. JMHO.

 

[Stan Kengai]

. . . Has the digital age made information more readily available at the cost of the ability to listen to experience. . . Do students fail to see the value in brick and mortar instruction?

To me, these questions are basically the same thing. There are many people out there (and some on here!) that think just because they've read books and scientific papers that they have all the knowledge they need.

. . . I believe some things need to be learned in person and some things are taught best through studying online/books. . .

Yes, things like basic horticultural practices and the styles and "guidelines" of bonsai can be learned from a book or the internet. But how does one then transfer this knowledge into an actual bonsai? What good does this knowledge do when you don't have all of the knowledge and skills to bring a plant to its true potential? One ends up with, at best, a mediocre bonsai because skills like pruning and wiring are best learned through hands-on guidance from an experienced practitioner. I speak from experience when I say that there is no way for a beginner or novice can even begin to comprehend all the facets of horticulture and styling and how they're interconnected. There is just too much information, and there is so much more to bonsai than what's on the internet or in a book.

 

[Vance Wood]

Not everthing you see on the internet is true,

You mean you're not really a French Model? I,m sorry I could not pass that one up. LOL

 

[catfish chapstick]

To me, these questions are basically the same thing. There are many people out there (and some on here!) that think just because they've read books and scientific papers that they have all the knowledge they need.



Yes, things like basic horticultural practices and the styles and "guidelines" of bonsai can be learned from a book or the internet. But how does one then transfer this knowledge into an actual bonsai? What good does this knowledge do when you don't have all of the knowledge and skills to bring a plant to its true potential? One ends up with, at best, a mediocre bonsai because skills like pruning and wiring are best learned through hands-on guidance from an experienced practitioner. I speak from experience when I say that there is no way for a beginner or novice can even begin to comprehend all the facets of horticulture and styling and how they're interconnected. There is just too much information, and there is so much more to bonsai than what's on the internet or in a book.

whatever information there is that isn't on the internet is only a matter of time. The ball is rolling.

 

[Poink88]

You mean you're not really a French Model? I,m sorry I could not pass that one up. LOL

But, but he said bonjour!!!

 

[fourteener]

Knowledge from a master is a tricky thing. They know so much more than what they are telling you. There is a thousand bits of info that make one statement make sense. For example...

I sometimes hesitate to give advice about gathering yamadori. How much does the person know about plants, root systems, stress for the tree, gathering something meaningful. Gathering a tamarack(ripping it out of the ground and throwing it in a 5 gallon pail) VS gathering a pine ( salvaging every 1/4 of root I can).

The context for the information shared is missed online. Someone in FL tells someone in MN to put their juniper outside today. I (from northern MN, average high 75 in the height of the summer) tell someone from Las Vegas to give their tree full sun all day)

The problem with some people is they might know a lot of info, get a lot of info, but are not very good at figuring out how that information matters to them or others. A personal local teacher, can offer so much more in that regard. The problem with the information age is that people think they know something before they really do. Reading something doesn't equal knowing something.

Wisdom always has something to do with a finished product that one can demonstrate. Intellectually knowing something is not the same as practically knowing something, thus someone's collection is the reference point for how much one knows. Knowledge acted on over time bears a result.

Online information is a great tool for people who have no one else, or for a tip that no one you know can help you with. But the average person will have a much better chance at success in a relationship with someone who knows more than you.

I was on another forum where crowd-sourcing was simply the blind leading the blind. I like it here better. I can tell their are people I can learn from. I can tell there are people who are simply book smart. I can tell the genuine interest of some new people.

I have a mentor, you should too. This forum should add to that! Thanks for those of you who are part of adding to my love of Bonsai.

 

[rockm]

Put someone who's been doing bonsai for a year with an instructor next to somone who's been doing bonsai for a year while watching videos on the Internet for a year. See who can wire, repot and design more effectively...

No matter HOW much information is posted online, there is simply no way it compares to person-to-person learning. Sorry. Watching and reading are not doing. Take a class or a workshop, see what I mean. If you don't have physical access to another person, see if you can get it online. There are programs out there that offer one-on-one instruction ONLINE FOR FREE. The American Bonsai Society has such a program...

If you've done all your learning electronically, you will probably be amazed at how much you soak up in such a venue. What was once a pixelated 18" x10" screen of a root pruning becomes a 3D experience where you can feel around in that root mass to find what needs to be done...

 

[Poink88]

Put someone who's been doing bonsai for a year with an instructor next to somone who's been doing bonsai for a year while watching videos on the Internet for a year. See who can wire, repot and design more effectively...

No matter HOW much information is posted online, there is simply no way it compares to person-to-person learning. Sorry. Watching and reading are not doing. Take a class or a workshop, see what I mean. If you don't have physical access to another person, see if you can get it online. There are programs out there that offer one-on-one instruction ONLINE FOR FREE. The American Bonsai Society has such a program...

If you've done all your learning electronically, you will probably be amazed at how much you soak up in such a venue. What was once a pixelated 18" x10" screen of a root pruning becomes a 3D experience where you can feel around in that root mass to find what needs to be done...

Problem with this is you make it sound as if the ones learning online are not practicing and doing on their own.

 

[DallasBonsai]

Today, a novice can access the lessons of masters and professionals from around the globe without having to take off their camo snuggy. (Go 'Merica!) Of course they purchase books and can have masters and the like as well.

Has the bonsai environment moved away from master/student to a more level environment where crowd-sourcing dominates the 1on1?

For me (Chris Rutherford), I prefer to learn by reading blogs and forums. I read an article about my generation that drew a connection between video games and failure. Video games have taught us perseverance and to improve our skills by repeatedly failing. This mentality could see the bonsai community expanding.

At a certain point it does become necessary to seek a master and formal training. When the time comes to seek formal instruction, has the information age better prepared us to the instruction?

In the very least, those who make a spur of the moment bonsai purchase have a fighting chance of keeping their tree alive and someday may seek instruction.

Edit: To be fair, I prefer learning online. However, I do have Fred Meyer to answer questions, so having a bonsai master around certainly helps.. You do need mentors and a community to go beyond keeping a bonsai alive.

 

[berobinson82]

I'll admit that I saw (learned) wiring online first http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TfTTcbLEHo but understood it much better at a Bill Valavanis workshop with Julian Adams. Perhaps self-studied, crowd-sourcing students are quicker to appreciate the in person training?

The teacher no longer has to translate words like nebari and teach them how to pull bark off a jin. It can be more valuable a lesson, can it not?

 

[nathanbs]

As someone who teaches I can confirm that students differ in their ability to learn. Some can take verbal/book learning while others do better with a hands on approach thru repetition.
Also we're dealing with cultures that vary from land to land.
I think it's important for a teacher to be able to recognize each student for how best they are able to grasp the material and then provide that individualized attention.
I always try and visualize the application as If I'm a brick layer. each subsequent row is easier to apply based on the time and effort that went to putting the first row down correctly.
Our club has a new member class this sunday afternoon that I look forward to assisting in.
I'm also a mentor to be assigned to newbees living in the area known as "the south end".
I think the best teachers are those that are continuous students.

I also agree and was thrilled to find out that one of my teachers Ted Matson was in a study group with Ryan Neil. What a great example of acknowledging an asset and exploiting it versus rejecting it out of fear, jealousy or misunderstanding. I happen to be fortunate enough to be in that study group as well. Talk about a powerhouse of information. Ted assimilates more of the info than I do so I then get to pick his brain at our classes later.

 

[nathanbs]

Overall I think that the "ideal" scenario for learning bonsai would be to first read online, books, magazines, etc, tinker with some practice material, perhaps take some basic lessons from someone who knows more than you, continue with your reading and studying and acquiring trees all along, and then after all of that try to study under someone whose name precedes them like a Boon, Neil, Shaner, Matson, Hagedorn, etc., etc. My thoughts are that you will have a much better understanding of what you are being told if you have accomplished the list of "prerequisites" first.
The advantage that one has today over someone 10+ years ago is they can gather more information faster than before. This will speed up the learning curve quite a bit regardless of whether you are a "rebel" or you embrace professional instruction.

 

[catfish chapstick]

I would love to study with Ryan Neil. I don't know if I ever will but in the meantime I like to see whatever he has to say on the internet. His critiques are something we need more of.

 

[mcpesq817]

Problem with this is you make it sound as if the ones learning online are not practicing and doing on their own.

I think you missed his point. Your learning will increase exponentially in person with an instructor than from learning online/from books and practicing it on your own.

I had read a ton of materials on repotting and repotted trees on my own, but after taking a workshop with Boon, it all made better sense to me rather than trying to figure things out from 2D pictures. I've read a ton of materials on wiring, and practiced plenty of times on my own - having taking workshops with folks like Ryan Neil, I advanced further up the learning curve. Not saying I wouldn't have eventually gotten there by practicing on my own, but it was nice to advance quicker with a teacher than through trial and error on my own.