Generational Learning

[Poink88]

I think you missed his point. Your learning will increase exponentially in person with an instructor than from learning online/from books and practicing it on your own.

The way I read it, that is not his point especially this part...

... once a pixelated 18" x10" screen of a root pruning becomes a 3D experience where you can feel around in that root mass to find what needs to be done...

I agree with your point and I've repeated it several times. I would love to take classes if I can and will undoubtedly learn more and faster. However, people always refer to us who are learning online to not know what we are talking about and just blowing steam. Being brushed off always based on that, is discouraging. You show them result of your work and it is alluded to luck. Or questioned about your failure rate which they don't have any idea of and make assumptions---jumping to conclusions that because I am/we are newbies---that I/we know nothing.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

My $.02?

I'm online quite a bit (ok, too much), reading technique, studying pots and potters, and appreciating photos of good bonsai. I'm here regularly, marginally on a couple other forums, and document work that I share weekly at my own site. I'm in 3 clubs, and subscribe to 3 magazines.

BUT...

When it comes right down to it, I get fired up by working on trees, working with those who can teach me to become a better practitioner, and working with others who enjoy the hobby; maybe teaching them something along the way.

Let's face it, no matter the learning vehicle, if you're going to do bonsai, the goal is to successfully APPLY it...

Tomorrow I get to work with Kathy Shaner again for the 4th year in a row...I packed the car yesterday, and probably won't sleep tonight. I don't get that fired up about posting/reading anything online, and I know I will learn more tomorrow than I could studying online/alone in a year.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I think you missed his point. Your learning will increase exponentially in person with an instructor than from learning online/from books and practicing it on your own.

I had read a ton of materials on repotting and repotted trees on my own, but after taking a workshop with Boon, it all made better sense to me rather than trying to figure things out from 2D pictures. I've read a ton of materials on wiring, and practiced plenty of times on my own - having taking workshops with folks like Ryan Neil, I advanced further up the learning curve. Not saying I wouldn't have eventually gotten there by practicing on my own, but it was nice to advance quicker with a teacher than through trial and error on my own.

Very good point and I agree 100%. I read books, watch videos, read blogs, post up on forums but there is no substitution for live interaction with someone who has experience. Reading a book is your interpretation of the material which will not always be correct, but having someone tell and show you "THIS IS HOW YOU DO THIS" is invaluable. There is less confusion. I joined a club last year and at the very first workshop I learned a great deal and I may be alone in this but I retained that knowledge better because i can visualize it and have the memory of it all.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Tomorrow I get to work with Kathy Shaner again for the 4th year in a row....

I'm super jealous, I think you are the second person who posted up since last November that they were getting to work with her. My club was supposed to have her for a demo last November but it had to be cancelled due to Hurrican Sandy. have fun.

 

[A Random User]

Horticulture, and technique can all be taught...
But what happens when those who teaching this are not so good
at the "ARTISTIC" side of things ???

I mean, what is often not taken into account are things like
composition, perspective, dramatization.
The things that not only make your tree come alive...
but, make it one that is remembered...

Perhaps this would make a whole nother thread ???
Can do so if you wish...


Oh, by the way thanks for this thread !!!

 

[aidan13]

I think the greatest value of having such a proliferation of information and knowledge available on the internet is in attracting new individuals to the art of bonsai. It is much easier to stumble across a picture gallery or article about bonsai and discover the art that way than it is to just happen to bump into a bonsai master at the grocery store!

The internet is also an invaluable resource for those that do not have the means or the inclination to study with a master. I personally discovered bonsai on the internet, and almost everything I've learned about it has come from the internet, along with books checked out from the library. I have neither the means, nor the time to study with a sensei, nor do I think I want to at this stage in my bonsai journey. I suspect that this may be the same for many of those who are new to bonsai, especially younger individuals. It may not be the "purest" way to learn the art of bonsai, or the most traditional, but it is what works for me, and for many others, if I am correct.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'm super jealous, I think you are the second person who posted up since last November that they were getting to work with her. My club was supposed to have her for a demo last November but it had to be cancelled due to Hurrican Sandy. have fun.

I will, and have already packed the camera; will be sure to share! She lives a couple hours from here, and does full-weekend workshops at her home with small groups. I was invited this year, but had already signed up for tomorrow's, then Bjorn is coming back and spending the weekend here on the 23rd...my wife is really understanding...but that might get the locks changed!!!

 

[berobinson82]

The way I read it, that is not his point.

I agree with your point and I've repeated it several times. I would love to take classes if I can and will undoubtedly learn more and faster. However, people always refer to us who are learning online to not know what we are talking about and just blowing steam. Being brushed off always based on that, is discouraging. You show them result of your work and it is alluded to luck. Or questioned about your failure rate which they don't have any idea of and make assumptions---jumping to conclusions that because I am/we are newbies---that I/we know nothing.

Dear Dario,

I'm quite sure mcpesq817 nailed rockm's post.

Try not to take this so personally. And be a wise man. The wise man knows that he knows nothing. I know nothing. Compare what you know to Kimura.... you know nothing. There's nothing wrong with that! Remember when you were so keen to say that unsifted turface works so well for you??? Now you know better.

What work have you showed that was chalked up to being luck? When you've done good work, I've SEEN people pat your back and encourage you. You sound awful sensitive in your this post for a guy who's signature line says not to sugar coat anything and be brutally honest.

Nothing wrong with being new. Everyone was new. Hell, in all my hobbies, the beginning part was by far the most exciting. Celebrate your newness and make up for it with enthusiasm!

 

[nathanbs]

Horticulture, and technique can all be taught...
But what happens when those who teaching this are not so good
at the "ARTISTIC" side of things ???

I mean, what is often not taken into account are things like
composition, perspective, dramatization.
The things that not only make your tree come alive...
but, make it one that is remembered...

Perhaps this would make a whole nother thread ???
Can do so if you wish...


Oh, by the way thanks for this thread !!!

Thats where the need for the more advanced teacher comes in after you've learned the basics and the horticulture.

 

[nathanbs]

I think the greatest value of having such a proliferation of information and knowledge available on the internet is in attracting new individuals to the art of bonsai. It is much easier to stumble across a picture gallery or article about bonsai and discover the art that way than it is to just happen to bump into a bonsai master at the grocery store!

The internet is also an invaluable resource for those that do not have the means or the inclination to study with a master. I personally discovered bonsai on the internet, and almost everything I've learned about it has come from the internet, along with books checked out from the library. I have neither the means, nor the time to study with a sensei, nor do I think I want to at this stage in my bonsai journey. I suspect that this may be the same for many of those who are new to bonsai, especially younger individuals. It may not be the "purest" way to learn the art of bonsai, or the most traditional, but it is what works for me, and for many others, if I am correct.

Nothing wrong with doing what works best for you physically, financially or what have you. It perhaps will take longer to become a self taught doctor than going through med school.

 

[Poink88]

We all know nothing compared to what is out there...

What I am passionate about is knowledge and freedom. It spills down to my hobby. When people start trampling either I can get testy. It is not about me...I use myself as example because I know and experienced it for a fact.

How do you encourage people to learn when you block or dismiss the single most effective way of distributing information right now?

 

[Tona]

I have been involved off and on with bonsai for well over 20 years. I was basically self taught, read books, scavenged the internet and attended shows. Just in the last two years have I joined a club, and gone to teachers/mentors. I have picked up good information from them, but I believe most of my knowledge is from the internet. I have also had bad experiences with instructors (dead trees) or poor styling advice. Everyone learns differently. I am now involved in a weekly class with one instructor/mentor and occasionally work with another. I like and respect them both but am not sure how much new I have actually learned. Yes, they will give me advice on what to do to the trees I bring in but I believe a lot of the advice is interpretation and style. For me it is more like asking them their opinion of my trees rather than being formally taught. There are other things like displaying trees, I have learned a bit about this area but that is because I had never been interested in formally displaying trees until recently. I am going to continue with these instructors, hoping to acquire better material along the way and hoping that in the long run these teachers will help me improve all of my trees. I really believe that material is the most important aspect after basic bonsai knowledge.
Remains to be seen,
Tona

 

[mcpesq817]

Dear Dario,

I'm quite sure mcpesq817 nailed rockm's post.

Try not to take this so personally. And be a wise man. The wise man knows that he knows nothing. I know nothing. Compare what you know to Kimura.... you know nothing. There's nothing wrong with that! Remember when you were so keen to say that unsifted turface works so well for you??? Now you know better.

What work have you showed that was chalked up to being luck? When you've done good work, I've SEEN people pat your back and encourage you. You sound awful sensitive in your this post for a guy who's signature line says not to sugar coat anything and be brutally honest.

Nothing wrong with being new. Everyone was new. Hell, in all my hobbies, the beginning part was by far the most exciting. Celebrate your newness and make up for it with enthusiasm!

Just to add a little bit to what was said here, it's also important to keep your mind open to new ideas, regardless of how long you have been doing something. It's very inspiring to hear that Matson (who I have not met yet) is going to be in a study group with Ryan Neil (who I was fortunate to meet last fall) - he's actually planning to learn from someone much younger and who has been doing bonsai probably for significantly fewer years. No ego there, just a will to learn.

My local club has very nice people, but some of the people who have been doing bonsai for decades seem to be too stubborn to try and learn from others. You know what? That attitude shows in their trees. I'd hope that when I hit 30 years of doing this hobby that my trees are pretty decent.

 

[Dav4]

My local club has very nice people, but some of the people who have been doing bonsai for decades seem to be too stubborn to try and learn from others. You know what? That attitude shows in their trees. I'd hope that when I hit 30 years of doing this hobby that my trees are pretty decent.

I'm not sure where I heard this...I think it was a quote attributed to Boon heard by one of his students as he tried to explain the hardest part about learning bonsai. Basically, Boon said the biggest obstacle his students encounter to learning and progressing in the art is "unlearning their first 30 years of bonsai, first and foremost". People develop bad habits, be it in wiring, re-potting, pruning, watering, etc., and these habits are hard to break.

 

[berobinson82]

We all know nothing compared to what is out there...

What I am passionate about is knowledge and freedom. It spills down to my hobby. When people start trampling either I can get testy. It is not about me...I use myself as example because I know and experienced it for a fact.

How do you encourage people to learn when you block or dismiss the single most effective way of distributing information right now?

I don't think anyone is trying to discourage internet reading. My question is about the divide in old and new ways of learning. And what I've learned so far is that the attitude here is that the internet is a great tool; and some people learn best from reading articles and watching youtube videos. In addition, getting "face time" with an instructor is a supplement to your education. It seems that some folks are saying that going to be formally trained is a second phase. So there is nothing wrong with learning on the internet. I think the lesson is that don't think the internet is the best classroom for a physical artform. Like reading about doing doing a surgery and then being in the room while it is performed. Watching the incision being made or doing it under a watchful eye.

 

[october]

I would love to study with Ryan Neil. I don't know if I ever will but in the meantime I like to see whatever he has to say on the internet. His critiques are something we need more of.

Hi catfish.. Are you sure about this..lol.. In another thread, it seemed like you were leaning well towards penjing and looser interpretations of tree styling. Ryan is practically %100 Japanese aesthetic training and styling.. However, you could study and learn the techniques, then branch out.

Rob

 

[mcpesq817]

I'm not sure where I heard this...I think it was a quote attributed to Boon heard by one of his students as he tried to explain the hardest part about learning bonsai. Basically, Boon said the biggest obstacle his students encounter to learning and progressing in the art is "unlearning their first 30 years of bonsai, first and foremost". People develop bad habits, be it in wiring, re-potting, pruning, watering, etc., and these habits are hard to break.

It's not only that, but people don't like hearing the truth. I was at a Boon workshop on repotting a number of years ago, where one of the more experienced persons brought in a juniper. Boon took a look at the person's tree and said it looked weak because the soil was bad. The person made some comment about microclimates and appeared to storm off in a huff

 

[jk_lewis]

Just remember at least half of what you read on the Internet is wrong.

A truism on the Internet and in bonsai: GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Start with decent material if you want to end up with a decent bonsai.

And, Practice makes Perfect.

 

[nathanbs]

I have been involved off and on with bonsai for well over 20 years. I was basically self taught, read books, scavenged the internet and attended shows. Just in the last two years have I joined a club, and gone to teachers/mentors. I have picked up good information from them, but I believe most of my knowledge is from the internet. I have also had bad experiences with instructors (dead trees) or poor styling advice. Everyone learns differently. I am now involved in a weekly class with one instructor/mentor and occasionally work with another. I like and respect them both but am not sure how much new I have actually learned. Yes, they will give me advice on what to do to the trees I bring in but I believe a lot of the advice is interpretation and style. For me it is more like asking them their opinion of my trees rather than being formally taught. There are other things like displaying trees, I have learned a bit about this area but that is because I had never been interested in formally displaying trees until recently. I am going to continue with these instructors, hoping to acquire better material along the way and hoping that in the long run these teachers will help me improve all of my trees. I really believe that material is the most important aspect after basic bonsai knowledge.
Remains to be seen,
Tona

One problem with a lot of "basic" bonsai instructors is that they don't get into teaching the important aspects of how to hold or use a tool, how to hold and pre-bend the wire with your thumb and index finger as you whined it around a branch, how to properly bind a branch with raffia to do a major bend, how to properly anchor a guy wire, how to properly tie-down a tree in a pot, or even more complicated how to tie down a 4' tall Cal. juniper with a rotted base into a single hole bunjin pot. These are all things that someone like you is not likely to have learned on their own, or may have but not as effectively as someone else more experienced has discovered. I think you are actually wasting your time with some of your teachers because of your self taught experience but if its enjoyable keep doing it. You will get a lot more out of someone like John Wang or Ryan Neil as far as furthering your knowledge and abilities.

 

[Bill S]

There are times when the experts (say Pall, Boon, Neil, Shaner, Hagedorn, etc.) themselves have different approach/technique. All works great but which is the best?

Mix that with a local instructor who teaches yet another. It is going through their own filter. At least online, you see various ones and decide for yourself. JMHO.

Have to disagree, the artists mentioned can show you thier results, online???? how much trust do you have????? There is so much chicken poop mixed in with everything else in the net, it can be hard to tell.


As to the OQ, I have to say that over the past year or two I see more and more (I was going to say discussion) tripe put out by the "new students" that goes along the line of, what do I need school for, I can do what I want, on my computer at home. I don't want to go to a job, I don't want a boss. This doesn't pertain to just bonsai, I am talking all of it, and all I can do is shake my head, and see a future entitlement user.