Generational Learning

[Bill S]

The thing is, many folks are more willing to just go it on their own rather than pay for instruction/instructional books or videos. If they have to pay for it, they'd rather just go without. In some ways it's similar to the current controversy with the recording industry and music pirating. If the service or product you are selling is no longer something people are willing to pay for, the ethics of the issue aside, you're out of luck. The options are to either provide that same service/product for free, and come up with some other way to monetize your services, (Netflix is a good example of this) or find a new new line of work! There is the third option of refusing to adapt and going down with your ship, but that's not the most fiscally sensible.

Sorry, but I have to do this-Aidan, you are nuts, at best is blackmail. Nice liberal way of saying hey the new breed don't want to pay so everyone give me what I want for free, because I don't want to pay. All I can say is please hold your breath while waiting. You gotta be kidding.

 

[berobinson82]

You know why a divorce costs so much? Because it's worth it!

Perhaps the same applies to bonsai instruction. One on one time with any coach is expensive. You aren't paying for their time but rather their expertise. An SME in any field can't continue to provide services if they give it all away.

 

[Vance Wood]

The thing is, many folks are more willing to just go it on their own rather than pay for instruction/instructional books or videos. If they have to pay for it, they'd rather just go without. In some ways it's similar to the current controversy with the recording industry and music pirating. If the service or product you are selling is no longer something people are willing to pay for, the ethics of the issue aside, you're out of luck. The options are to either provide that same service/product for free, and come up with some other way to monetize your services, (Netflix is a good example of this) or find a new new line of work! There is the third option of refusing to adapt and going down with your ship, but that's not the most fiscally sensible.

Good God man, did you take the time to read what you wrote? Do you really believe it? What you are saying is: iIt's OK for you or anyone else to get what I do or make, or anyone else that has a product or service, for free without paying me for my time or product. Then you go on and say if that's the way it is get a new job or find something else to do. Or find a new line of work.

If that attitude is indicative of your generation you are in big trouble. Think about it: If your piracy and thievery is what you rationalize as an acceptable way of life you are going to have a really empty and dull future ahead of you. By your very actions you will drive from the market place any thing that may enrich your life or be of value because those people capable of producing such things wont be able to make a livelihood doing so.

It's like the Rapa Nuie of Easter Island cutting down all the trees to make rollers to transport these great carvings of big heads from one part or the island to another. They made their island uninhabitable to the point that they became cannibals in order to survive. This continued until missionaries stopped the practice in the 18th Century. They sacrificed their entire future for what they wanted right now.

My wife enjoys watching American Idol, a program I can no longer tolerate because the quality of music and performance has become of such a degraded level. I have seen the judges stand and praise performers who can't even carry a tune let alone keep a song in the same key.

Maybe twenty years from now you will be wondering why there is no decent music, no good movies, no good computer programs, and all of your cultural needs will be satisfied by like minded foolish people on Face Book, Twitter, or WTF is this dot com. There will be no advancement in technology for things you might be interested in because no one can make a living developing things you might be interested in. I know what it is like to have an invention stolen and pirated so I no longer market my invention. That's not just a puppy dog story that's the truth.

You are going to be limited by what you can do for yourself and finding yourself in a odd situation where and if you come up with something worth while you will share it with no one, you will tell no one, you will show it to no one, because as soon as you do an entire culture, thinking they deserve your idea for free, will take it away from you and play with it themselves without a never mind as far as you are concerned.

If we take this argument and philosophy one step further it is not much of a stretch to assume that your labor does not belong to you. Your work belongs to everybody else so you should work for free.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Vance, I don't think that Aiden13 saying that people want handouts, but that the new advances in technology are changing the nature of how people sell their services.

Netflix found a way to use the internet to deliver movies and TV shows when someone could easily pirate them. Make it simple, easy, and cheap to get this content legally and I won't be tempted to pirate them, because (let's be honest) it's very easy for a computer savvy person to pirate movies and tv shows. When it comes to music, a lot of the money from album sales actually go to the record company instead of the artists (who actually get most of their money from touring and merchandise). A lot of artists I listen are independent and actually put up albums for free (!) to download then try to sell tickets and t-shirts. It seems to be working for them while there are major recording artists struggling to sell a fraction of what they would have ten to fifteen years ago before Napster and Kazaa came along. It may be wrong to download copyrighted material, but sometimes it's better to embrace change and be practical rather than stick your head in the sand and continue suffering.

This doesn't mean that a person should just give out their information for free, but someone had better be able to bring some serious knowledge to the table if I can easily look up basic information on the internet. Something that comes to mind is Harry Harrington's Bonsai4Me website. He puts up so much information that, for someone new to the hobby like me, it's a gold mine. He doesn't charge money for access to the site, but there are some unobtrusive advertisements on it that he surely makes some money from. Not only that, but I've bought two of his three books just because of that website. If he wouldn't have just given out some of that information for free I would never have bothered to get those books. Then you have videos of artists like Ryan Neil being posted on youtube. Does he troll the youtube site demanding that the videos be taken down because they might eat into his profits from the lecture/workshop circuit? Of course not, if anything they drive interest to his work. Watching a video isn't as good as personal instruction in person, but you're still gleaming some information, hopefully.


Personally, I feel like I've learned a lot from the internet and books, but that doesn't mean it's a complete substitute for live interaction with trees and instructors. Access to that information was like starting out on first base, whereas without it twenty five years ago I would have had three balls and a strike from the start.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I don't think that Aiden13 saying that people want handouts, but that the new advances in technology are changing the nature of how people sell their services.

Netflix found a way to use the internet to deliver movies and TV shows when someone could easily pirate them. Make it simple, easy, and cheap to get this content legally and I won't be tempted to pirate them, because (let's be honest) it's very easy for a computer savvy person to pirate movies and tv shows. When it comes to music, a lot of the money from album sales actually go to the record company instead of the artists (who actually get most of their money from touring and merchandise). A lot of artists I listen are independent and actually put up albums for free (!) to download then try to sell tickets and t-shirts. It seems to be working for them while there are major recording artists struggling to sell a fraction of what they would have ten to fifteen years ago before Napster and Kazaa came along. It may be wrong to download copyrighted material, but sometimes it's better to embrace change and be practical rather than stick your head in the sand and continue suffering.

This doesn't mean that a person should just give out their information for free, but someone had better be able to bring some serious knowledge to the table if I can easily look up basic information on the internet. Something that comes to mind is Harry Harrington's Bonsai4Me website. He puts up so much information that, for someone new to the hobby like me, it's a gold mine. He doesn't charge money for access to the site, but there are some unobtrusive advertisements on it that he surely makes some money from. Not only that, but I've bought two of his three books just because of that website. If he wouldn't have just given out some of that information for free I would never have bothered to get those books. Then you have videos of artists like Ryan Neil being posted on youtube. Does he troll the youtube site demanding that the videos be taken down because they might eat into his profits from the lecture/workshop circuit? Of course not, if anything they drive interest to his work. Watching a video isn't as good as personal instruction in person, but you're still gleaming some information, hopefully.


Personally, I feel like I've learned a lot from the internet and books, but that doesn't mean it's a complete substitute for live interaction with trees and instructors. Access to that information was like starting out on first base, whereas without it twenty five years ago I would have had three balls and a strike from the start.

As to Bonsai4me. Did you ever ask yourself where he got his information? Did people donate it, in that he asked for it, and they gave it. Or---did he just find it and take it? In both sequences has he ever furnished attribution? Do you think that he got all of this information out of his vast experience and expertise?

The only way a person can furnish a free video is that they can make up the difference by the things they can get paid for. Of course guys that think like this; If I can get the milk for free why do I have to buy the Cow, will in all likelihood never contribute to this income by going to a demo or a workshop or buy from his/her nursery.

I don't think that these people consciously think I want a hand out. Over the years they have just been programed to think everything you want is out there to download, records, movies, soft ware, bonsai writings of technique etc. They just feel that it's out there for free why should I pay for it? Littl by little we chip away at the creative thinkers in our midsts till it no longer benifits them to share the results of their hard work, years of study, and efforts to develop those things that they shared in the first place. Some people would say that it's stupid to pay for stuff they can get for free. Eventually those sources of "FREE SHIT" are going to dry up for the same reasons. It's stupid to share information that in many cases has taken you years to learn, personal treasure to develop, and time to put it into some sort of media just to have some pimple faced dweeb with his hand in his pants access it without a single thought to the source and all that it took to produce it.

 

[jkd2572]

This is a hobby for me not work. If I have something to share I will. Thinking that someone needs to be paid to offer advice is strange to me. I'm not against people from getting paid to do so. I do believe that you can in our hobby get it for free if you know the right people to ask. I do wish that the people that are becoming bonsai professionals in in the USA are making a good living. The good ones will always get paid for demonstrating their talent and selling their trees if they are good at business. They can also teach and help their names by having a blog ECt. Showing techniques and such.

 

[Vance Wood]

This is a hobby for me not work. If I have something to share I will. Thinking that someone needs to be paid to offer advice is strange to me. I'm not against people from getting paid to do so. I do believe that you can in our hobby get it for free if you know the right people to ask. I do wish that the people that are becoming bonsai professionals in in the USA are making a good living. The good ones will always get paid for demonstrating their talent and selling their trees if they are good at business. They can also teach and help their names by having a blog ECt. Showing techniques and such.

I didn't mean to imply that I mind sharing anything but over the years I have shared a good deal of information openly and some of it to my detriment. It's not so much that I am a professional though I do make some money at it from time to time, it's the lack of attribution that pervades the blogs, web sites, and publications where some of my work has been quoted almost word for word that personally bothers me.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi. I'm Bernard. I seek understanding and not a pissing match.

This theme is being toyed with on other threads so I wanted to formalize this discussion.

So 30 years ago, in order to learn bonsai, folks had to network and travel great distances and purchase hardcover books and of course learn from their errors in the back yard. They had a sensei and mentors.

Today, a novice can access the lessons of masters and professionals from around the globe without having to take off their camo snuggy. (Go 'Merica!) Of course they purchase books and can have masters and the like as well.

The information age is upon us. The future happened and is still happening. The internet has changed the bonsai culture has it not?

Some questions I'm considering and I hope you do too. Please help me brainstorm.

Are new age students resented by "teachers"?

Has the bonsai environment moved away from master/student to a more level environment where crowd-sourcing dominates the 1on1?

I believe that the new age student DOES acquire information quicker than a student would have 30 years ago. There is more information readily available.

Has the digital age made information more readily available at the cost of the ability to listen to experience.

Do teachers feel less valuable?

Do students fail to see the value in brick and mortar instruction?

I believe some things need to be learned in person and some things are taught best through studying online/books.

I'd love to look at this phenomenom academically rather than interjecting our own prejudice. Anyone care to argue constructively?

There is a divide and we can help bridge it if we understand the dimensions of it.

THis forum has been a lot of fun lately.

I tried to post this on your PM but there is no way to post a picture on a PM that I can find.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Vance, what is the context of your planter boxes? If I recall correctly you patented them, but people were just building their own after seeing yours and you couldn't make any money of them?

 

[nathanbs]

I could be wrong but a typical Japanese bonsai professional makes their money from selling trees, boarding trees and labor associated to working on clients trees. I dont think that a lot of money or any money for that matter comes from making videos or training others in Japan. Here it seems that since so many people are too cheap to buy trees for one reason or another likely because they are determined that they can do it themselves, professional artists resort to other creative ways to make money: demos, workshops, dvds, books, etc. I dont think information is a sustainable way to make a living, however there will always be a need for an artist to headline our conventions and demonstrate at our local bonsai clubs meetings. When thats not enough 1 on 1 teaching seems to be working out fairly well for those who do it. Boon seems to be somewhat successful with his DVDs and I think Ryan will be doing some as well. But ultimately bonsai will need to reach a level where people will pay decent money for material and a lot of money for finished trees done by artists like Ryan.

 

[catfish chapstick]

All information will be free in the future. Just wait. You can't stop it. All things. Its already starting

 

[davetree]

All information will be free. All the good and all the crap. Have fun sorting it out as far as bonsai goes.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Look, here comes our French Bonsai Master, we booked him on the Internet!

Uhh Bonjour...???...

Regards,
Martin

sorry, but I like that commercial

 

[Anthony]

Catfish,

try it from this angle ------ all discarded information will be free.

You still have to pay for research [ often into the unknown ]
You still have to pay for experience [ yours and other folks.]

The Internet is like a gigantic library,but as you progress into any subject, you learn that the information is pretty shallow, and easily found in a basic book here and there.

Bonsai as a hobby, does not mean you have to have a world standard design, it just requires you to like what you are growing enough to just keep on growing it.

All my Bonsai are in the back of a house, I enjoy growing trees, not showing them off.
A few friends visit and that's good enough.
Good Morning.
Anthony

 

[lordy]

All information will be free. All the good and all the crap. Have fun sorting it out as far as bonsai goes.

Kinda like here, where every swinging Richard has their "humble opinion" along with the good possibility of no real credibility through experience.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, what is the context of your planter boxes? If I recall correctly you patented them, but people were just building their own after seeing yours and you couldn't make any money of them?

There was that but, the fact that people started using a little device called the pond basket that came along years after my patent pretty much put my device too expensive. The pond basket is a clever and cheap rip off of my development.

 

[catfish chapstick]

Look, here comes our French Bonsai Master, we booked him on the Internet!

Uhh Bonjour...???...

Regards,
Martin

sorry, but I like that commercial

I agree with all of you but I still believe, for better or worse, information will only get freer as time passes. That is the direction things are headed. There is no substitute for experience.

 

[davetree]

When I started bonsai I was learning through books and the Internet. I had some trees that had been growing for a few years when I finally took my first hands on lesson. The first thing the teacher noticed was that my trees had no depth. That turned into "Look here comes the guy with no back branches !". I paid attention and within a year or two my trees all had some depth and back branches, and were much better bonsai. I didn't have a clue until that lesson.

 

[catfish chapstick]

When I started bonsai I was learning through books and the Internet. I had some trees that had been growing for a few years when I finally took my first hands on lesson. The first thing the teacher noticed was that my trees had no depth. That turned into "Look here comes the guy with no back branches !". I paid attention and within a year or two my trees all had some depth and back branches, and were much better bonsai. I didn't have a clue until that lesson.

I feel like im being misunderstood. Working hands on and having a teacher is valuable. I can't argue that. Information is too and I for one am happy that if I find a tree I can be sure (usually) that there is information available about it. More now than ever. Im not trying to imply that anyone is better off without a teacher or real experience. Those things are valuable also.

 

[Vance Wood]

After some thought I have come to one conclusion, not the only conclusion, but just one of perhaps many. If you base your experience upon downloading the information shared by people that have been doing this for many years and when those people are all gone, and some day they will be, You are hanging your hopes on a diminishing pool of resources where eventually the blind will be leading the blind.

If the experienced help you have relied upon is replaced by people who have essentially learned what they think they know the same way you seek to learn it they may not be willing to share. The reason again is human nature. It is difficult for someone with a "taker" mentality to all of a sudden become someone with a "giver" mentality. I consider it an axiom: The taker will always be a taker and the giver will eventually dry up like an old apple tree.

Where to you think all of this free information comes from? When the sources dry out so will the free information. What you will have is a group of people who think they know every thing sharing (if they do) with people who think they know everything and in the end what you will get is a growing mediocrity.