Help for Black Pine backbudding

[Maiden69]

Sorry, I don't undestand, you use togheter or just osmocote for 3 4 months and then switch to miracle gro ?

At the same time. You put down the Osmocote, leave it and put more down after 3 to 4 months. Then you do the miracle Grow every two weeks. I want strong and rapid growth and I have a very hot and humid climate, so JBP can use a lot of the fertilizer I give.

You could do either/or. Osmocote by itself, Miracle Grow by itself, or combine both.

For Osmocote I alternate the locations. On a round pot I would place small mounds in a triangle shape, then 3 months later I place another 3 mounds in between the ones placed first. Like in the picture. Right now I don't have anything in refinement so I fertilize everything. I do liquid fertilizer every other week, if we had a week of heavy rain I will probably apply liquid at the end of that week as well.



The kelp/humic-fulvic can be done every week, and I think there are some that apply them multiple times a week to the roots. If you spray the foliage, only once a week. I think Curtis said that it can induce leaf burn if done more than that.

 

[bonsai-max]

At the same time. You put down the Osmocote, leave it and put more down after 3 to 4 months. Then you do the miracle Grow every two weeks. I want strong and rapid growth and I have a very hot and humid climate, so JBP can use a lot of the fertilizer I give.

Yes sir, thank you so much....

 

[snowman04]

Hi there,

I need some help to backbudding my black pine.
Depending of the plant's strength I do the decandeling work and every year I remove the old needles and some of the new ones always according to the plants strength.
But here is the problem, the branch always develope a single or two big buds in apex and nothing back, so I really are not able to backbudding the branch.
This plant is a yamadory that is with me since 33 years but I really started to work on her the last 4 years and I am trying to develop a more compact tree
Here are some pictures, do you think I should take out the apex bud during the winter ?
I live in Basel, Switzerland as a reference for the climate.....



Thank you very much

Just caught up with your post. Beautiful pine...

 

[bonsai-max]

Just caught up with your post. Beautiful pine...

Thank you so much, with the help of the expert I will try to promote some backbudding, or at least a more strong plant.
This forum is full of competent persons always ready to help....

 

[sierrajuniper]

At the same time. You put down the Osmocote, leave it and put more down after 3 to 4 months. Then you do the miracle Grow every two weeks. I want strong and rapid growth and I have a very hot and humid climate, so JBP can use a lot of the fertilizer I give.

You could do either/or. Osmocote by itself, Miracle Grow by itself, or combine both.

For Osmocote I alternate the locations. On a round pot I would place small mounds in a triangle shape, then 3 months later I place another 3 mounds in between the ones placed first. Like in the picture. Right now I don't have anything in refinement so I fertilize everything. I do liquid fertilizer every other week, if we had a week of heavy rain I will probably apply liquid at the end of that week as well.

View attachment 477850

The kelp/humic-fulvic can be done every week, and I think there are some that apply them multiple times a week to the roots. If you spray the foliage, only once a week. I think Curtis said that it can induce leaf burn if done more than that.

Hi Maiden69,

Do you use 1 teaspoon of Miracle Grow per gallon of water or more? Thanks

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Greetings!

Figure I’d put together a basic single flush pine summary as you have been getting random snippets. So some of this will be repeat advice, some new and some correcting previous miscues.

The tree is not strong because of the pruning technique first and fertilization timing a distant second place. Strength comes from the total mass of needles on the tree. While fertilizer provides a tree nutrients, without the necessary needle mass the tree will slowly spiral downhill.

So fertilization is only a small piece of the puzzle. Once the tree has a critical mass of needles fertilization becomes more important.

1. Timing is key for fertilization.

Fertilization of single flush trees isn’t done in the spring. This just makes the internodes long. Wait to fertilize until all the needles have hardened off. (Sometime in June in my area.) Then go for it. But start off being conservative.

Osmocote plus is fine, as are other slow release fertilizers…. I supplement a solid fertilizer with an every 14 day routine of miracid/Humic/Fulvic/kelp, alternating on the next 14 days with fish emulsion/Humic/Fulvic/kelp. (Unless the temperatures get above 35C - then wait until the temperature go below this 35C).

Just use the Fish etc routine with Osmocote if you want to be more conservative. Continue an NPK fertilizer through the winter, but stop in February.

Biochar would be good to add at 5% for the next repot if you do not nuke your tree with pesticides.

(btw….Needle plucking or cutting needles is only done for double flush pines. It is not ever done for single flush as these are the sites for back budding. If you cut the old needles back, there will be little or no back budding.

2. Managing growth by systematic candle pinching… not candle pruning.

Single flush pine growth is managed by evening out the length of the candles in spring through pinching the candles back enough to match the outermost growth of the needle silhouette. You might not have old needles to measure too, but estimate the length of what the needles would be and only pinch back to this length, always leaving sufficient needle pairs for the tree to be strong.

Pinch strong first. Then medium, finally the weakest…. But only pinch if the candles are growing past the needle silhouette. Each time one pinches some needles must remain. Never decandle. Sometimes one has to go back and repinch to keep inside the silhouette, but always leave needles on each candle.

If I were to say a number of needle pairs to leave it might be about 12-16 pairs on a properly managed tree… others may disagree and leave more or less but this is a decent average to begin with.

Start pinching with the strong, then the medium and finally the weak candles only as needed. Do this on each candle before the needles push away from the candle. Once the needles push out, it’s too late. The tree has transitioned to create the needles and will loss strength witheach candle pinched too late.

Eventually in a couple years, maybe not one, the tree will respond by backbudding strongly. Once the growth becomes robust you can do selective cut backs AP each year after the needles have hardened off to push back the growth to the desired profile.

That said, it maybe necessary to create a larger design depending on the trees progress over time. Some trees bounce back, others are resentful and don’t. In the latter case you’ll be stuck with a larger design.

In any event you are in for the long haul! Please post updated photos as the tree progresses.

Good luck!

cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

Hi, thank you so much for the clear and detailed explanation. Sometimes is very difficult to find a path, as also here in the forum there are totally different approach or point of view. So since I have different single flush pine I will try the different approach on each one and see the result.
Since your explanation is the more detailed I will try your pattern to this plant, but now I have started the fertilization and I will stop it...
Can you explain a little bit this :

to match the outermost growth of the needle silhouette.

What is the benefit from the Biochar ?
Normally I use pesticide only if I need
Thank you for your time

 

[bonsai-max]

Sometime in June in my area.

I see that we have more or less the same weather, maybe more warm here in spring summer, so probably I have to start the fertilization a little bit early.
Before the fertilization did you give fulvic acid, kelp or not ?
Did you choose miracid because the pines loves acid soil ?
btw I have no chance to find miracid here in switzerland

thank you

 

[bonsai-max]

Basel :

Cfb = Temperate oceanic climate or subtropical highland climate; coldest month averaging above 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), all months with average temperatures below 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). No significant precipitation difference between seasons (neither the abovementioned set of conditions fulfilled).

Bothel:

Csb = Warm-summer Mediterranean climate; coldest month averaging above 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F)), all months with average temperatures below 22 °C (71.6 °F), and at least four months averaging above 10 °C (50 °F). At least three times as much precipitation in the wettest month of winter as in the driest month of summer, and the driest month of summer receives less than 40 mm (1.6 in).[1]

 

[Maiden69]

Hi Maiden69,

Do you use 1 teaspoon of Miracle Grow per gallon of water or more? Thanks

I use the spoon that comes in the box, I think it is close to or a little more than 1 tbsp. I use the powder, not the liquid.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

What is the benefit from the Biochar ?
Normally I use pesticide only if I need
Thank you for your time

The main benefit of Biochar is boosting the microbial activity in the media. This directly benefits the tree’s ability to uptake nutrients. It is especially effective when used with natural fertilizer regimes. This can create a healthier less disease susceptible tree. One can use horticultural charcoal too, this can have a bit less effect, but still very positive.

Systemic pesticides and fungicides negatively affect the rhizospheric growth for a long time. Ephemeral pesticides and fungicides for a short time. Covering the media helps protect the rhizosphere in the latter case unless the problem is with disease in the media.

I see that we have more or less the same weather, maybe more warm here in spring summer, so probably I have to start the fertilization a little bit early.

Maybe. Timing varies with the yearly weather patterns. Check the needle tips. If the are mature they will be hard.

Before the fertilization did you give fulvic acid, kelp or not ?

I don’t. Not sure there would be a reason to without also fertilizing. Good question for @cmeg1

Did you choose miracid because the pines loves acid soil ? btw I have no chance to find miracid here in switzerland. thank you

Yes, partially. Miracid also has micronutrients… coupled with a slow release fertilizer it can be very helpful.

There are very likely other similar products that are marketed in your country. After all, the Swiss are known for their farms

These fertilizers work well for trees in development/redevelopment like your tree. For trees in refinement back off on frequency or dilute more.
country.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

to match the outermost growth of the needle silhouette

Can you clarify this ? my poor english is not enough....

Thank you for your time, so you wait until the candle are open and the needle hard to start fertilization.
Do you think I should repot this plant this year ? Last repot was 5 years ago, but the pot is not full, another sign of week plant, and the soil is good ( akadama kiryu pumice) but maybe akadama start to disaggregating... I can also do next year

Here i can find only this similar to Miracid, but I don't want to risk

compo for Hortensie

 

[bonsai-max]

The main benefit of Biochar is boosting the microbial activity in the media.

Biochar plus other thing are here, can you have a look to my last post ?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Biochar plus other thing are here, can you have a look to my last post ?

So sorry, lots of jobs to do on my side and won’t be as frequent a poster for a bit. Spring work blues… should be a good bonsai song!

Can’t tell about the fertilizer. The site didn’t post the ingredients. Look for basically an acidic fertilizer basic an 8:1:2 ratio 24:3:16. Or 16:2:4) with micronutrients… but don’t knock yourself out. Find something acid oriented with micronutrients, preferably with a higher nitrogen… slow release if you prefer. The goal is to kick start the tree, but not hurt it by overwhelming the root tips and cause damage.

Inside the needle silhouette is defined as within the tips of the last year needles. Here’s a photo illustrating this. JWP


Note the multiple candles formed inside the outer tips of the needles. (Tomorrow only two buds laterally oriented will be left as these are big enough to pluck safely). That’s my guide for plucking. Pluck to here and this action shuttle the energy backwards down the branch.

Here’s another tree, a Mugo with golden tips. (This tree doesn’t know what to do with itself, likely as I’ve been monkeying with it too much in the past years, chasing the growth back as it will back bud on old wood without much convincing.) The needles are longer then desirable, but still the outer edge of the needle silhouette is going to be my guide. This photo is a bit harder to interpret as it has at least three candles sprouting from different needle pairs in the top 3 cm of the branch tip.



Hope this is clear for you. If you having further questions, please PM me. I’ll answer as soon as possible.

Cheers and best of luck!
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

Has anyone tried using cytokinin treatment, like a zeatin or 6-benzylaminopurine spray? My understanding is that it's used to induce bushy growth for large-scale annual floriculture. Temporarily inducing yatsabusa-type growth in seedlings could be useful, forcing all of the needle buds to open before resuming normal growth.

I found this on internet, it's Cytochinin hormon.
The usage should be 1gr each liter 1:1000 but I have no idea when and for how long.
Maybe I can try on another JBP, I am thinking that auxine is good for rooting and Cytochinin for budding so maybe if I give some Cyto in the second part of the season, after decandeling it can promote backbudding
Someone have an idea ?

 

[BrightsideB]

I found this on internet, it's Cytochinin hormon.
The usage should be 1gr each liter 1:1000 but I have no idea when and for how long.
Maybe I can try on another JBP, I am thinking that auxine is good for rooting and Cytochinin for budding so maybe if I give some Cyto in the second part of the season, after decandeling it can promote backbudding
Someone have an idea ?

View attachment 483457View attachment 483458

Sounds like it could be an interesting experiment.

 

[bonsai-max]

I started as planned, probably is not the new routine or yes I don't know but we have some shy backbudding here. Just a couple of pics but I have more

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I started as planned, probably is not the new routine or yes I don't know but we have some shy backbudding here. Just a couple of pics but I have more

View attachment 484634

View attachment 484635

Once you see the results this spring let’s revisit exactly what you ended up doing and spell it out clearly. This thread has been so back and forth with different suggestions and sources, etc. that I cannot figure out exactly what methid you might have ended up using. I have a large ABP that buds out heavily but only on the recent wood and none further back so I am interested in what works. Glad to see you are getting sime results.

 

[bonsai-max]

Once you see the results this spring let’s revisit exactly what you ended up doing and spell it out clearly. This thread has been so back and forth with different suggestions and sources, etc. that I cannot figure out exactly what methid you might have ended up using. I have a large ABP that buds out heavily but only on the recent wood and none further back so I am interested in what works. Glad to see you are getting sime results.

Hi, yes at the end this post is a potpourri of very good ideas, for different stage plantes, so I am follow different approaches depends of the plant.
Yes the ABP surprise me this season with some buds on old wood.
This is what I am doing for the ABP, I tried to follow the advice on the post, but with the products I can find here.

Once a week ( sunday) I give Miracle Gro universal on the soil as suggested on the package
https://miraclegro.com/en-ca/produc...l-purpose-plant-food-concentrate/3035306.html

Couple a week I give Alga Live Kelp extract spray 3ml x 1lt. water
https://www.fertenia.it/ing/biopromotori/alga_live.pdf

Once a week ( Wednesday) i give Bayer Ambition Amino Acid, Fulvic Acid, and Micro Element on the soil 1ml. x 1 Lt. water
https://www.bayer.com/en/id/ambition

Regarding the dosage, with alga live I have had a very nice talking with one of the biologist involved in the development of the product because he is curious about the results over bonsai. For the bayer I am following the advice of a friend that asked bayer some months ago.
I think that the Bayer is the most powerful of the trio

For other plants (mugo or Scott) i follow more or less the same pattern but I added some osmocote plus 10gr each 4lt. of soil.
For another plant that is in refinement I will start later, after the candle will be open and the needle are strong as suggested.

After the repot I use only this stimulant for the first three weeks, no direct sun no fertilizer
https://agrariagioiese.it/en/stimul...or-stimulant-of-germination-and-growth-ml-300

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Hi, yes at the end this post is a potpourri of very good ideas, for different stage plantes, so I am follow different approaches depends of the plant.
Yes the ABP surprise me this season with some buds on old wood.
This is what I am doing for the ABP, I tried to follow the advice on the post, but with the products I can find here.

Once a week ( sunday) I give Miracle Gro universal on the soil as suggested on the package
https://miraclegro.com/en-ca/produc...l-purpose-plant-food-concentrate/3035306.html

Couple a week I give Alga Live Kelp extract spray 3ml x 1lt. water
https://www.fertenia.it/ing/biopromotori/alga_live.pdf

Once a week ( Wednesday) i give Bayer Ambition Amino Acid, Fulvic Acid, and Micro Element on the soil 1ml. x 1 Lt. water
https://www.bayer.com/en/id/ambition

Regarding the dosage, with alga live I have had a very nice talking with one of the biologist involved in the development of the product because he is curious about the results over bonsai. For the bayer I am following the advice of a friend that asked bayer some months ago.
I think that the Bayer is the most powerful of the trio

For other plants (mugo or Scott) i follow more or less the same pattern but I added some osmocote plus 10gr each 4lt. of soil.
For another plant that is in refinement I will start later, after the candle will be open and the needle are strong as suggested.

After the repot I use only this stimulant for the first three weeks, no direct sun no fertilizer
https://agrariagioiese.it/en/stimul...or-stimulant-of-germination-and-growth-ml-300

Excellent summation, you put it all together in one easy to find and follow method, thanks