Help me pick a front on this JWP

barrosinc

Masterpiece
Messages
4,127
Reaction score
4,691
Location
Santiago, Chile
USDA Zone
9b
I really like what BVF did there... cutting the lower right branch and compacting the tree.
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,339
Reaction score
11,413
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
Potawotami13 is referring to the "Pines" book in the Masters Series. From Stone Lantern.

That book is made up of reprinted articles from Bonsai Today. Many, if not all, of which are translations of articles originally published in Japanese.

There is good info in the book. But many of the articles are written by different authors, so the techniques vary from one to another.

I have the book and I do refer to it. The info is sometimes confusing for the reasons you mention and it isn't concise; you really have to hunt for the detailed info on the basic stuff.

Since a nice concise guide doesn't seem to exist for JWP, I guess I am going to have to try and make up my own guide and hope I get it right.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Paradox, good luck with that!
 

aframe

Shohin
Messages
433
Reaction score
575
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
USDA Zone
9b
It would seem that if you use "B", the trunk will emerge from the pot very vertically, creating a large open space under the first right branch. The taper is quit extreme between lower and middle trunk for an informal upright, and it's more evident on the "B" side.
Grafting a branch in that open space on the right, and lowering the first branch on the right may help: outlined in red
 

Attachments

  • pine.jpg
    pine.jpg
    362 KB · Views: 24

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Aframe, last spring, I placed two grafts on the trunk to do something like what you describe. Neither took.

Impossible to bend that first branch in the shape you drew. Way to stiff and brittle. I can lower it some. It does have good "top branches", so it can be shortened.

This tree has all kind of faults. Heavy branches up top, and lighter ones down low. The afore mentioned abrupt change where the graft Union is. Immature bark on the White Pine portion. Wire scars on the Black Pine trunk. Wire scars on most of the branches. Branches on the inside of curves. A bare apex. A branch that crosses in front of the trunk. Reverse taper at the nebari. Poor taper of the White Pine portion of the trunk. It's a wonder that it even halfway resembles a bonsai! Lol! Maybe I'll name it "Rulebreaker"!
 

Djtommy

Omono
Messages
1,551
Reaction score
5,367
Location
Tokyo
The small anglechange compared to your previous b makes the trunk look better.
I'm not really in favour of what I call riceball style so I might still consider removing one of the bottom branches.
Bvfs virtual looked quite nice.

But if this would make the graftplace more visible again I wouldn't do it and keep as is now

Grtz
 

Cadillactaste

Neagari Gal
Messages
16,262
Reaction score
20,886
Location
NE Ohio: zone 4 (USA) lake microclimate
USDA Zone
5b
I like the direction your going with it...though the "A" photo showing the deadwood I did like. I like deadwood though...sucker for it. The bend in the trunk looked to bring the tree toward the viewer a bit. But, I'm still wet behind the ears...and I'm sure your going in the right direction. I'm sure it has different aspects for both angles...thus why you asked for ones opinion. Though nothing exactly shows all the movement in a 2D photo. That is where you have the upper hand.

The "A" angle hides the reverse taper to a degree as well. At least in my mind's eye...

Good luck with it though...
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
The nebari is better with A, no doubt.

I'll try to take a better photo of B tomorrow.
 

Cadillactaste

Neagari Gal
Messages
16,262
Reaction score
20,886
Location
NE Ohio: zone 4 (USA) lake microclimate
USDA Zone
5b
The nebari is better with A, no doubt.

I'll try to take a better photo of B tomorrow.

I guess making a list of the pros of each side...would also be something to do. Or even as Judy suggested...photos from other angles. I find...that seeing it in 2D points out my own flaws in wiring and such. It seems to stick out more...from that perspective. At least in my mind's eye.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Oh, this tree has few pros... I'm just trying to minimize the cons!
 

zelk

Shohin
Messages
408
Reaction score
304
Location
San DIego
USDA Zone
10a
I think view B looks better. Both views would require slight adjustment of the branching to accommodate for the new angle. For example, in view B, the second lowest branch from the left, seems too obscured by the lowest branch when compared to the other branches. I believe it could be adjusted. But I tend to agree, View B.
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
7,496
Reaction score
12,832
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
I like what you have in post #34 as the front, but can you consider not standing up the trunk?

Maybe it needs to be elevated a little, but I think the tree would be better if you set the pot down. The the silouette of the trunk would then be that of a more interesting and fairly dynamic slant-style. Setting the pot down would also open the view to the foliage atop the lower right branch, which I think will help a lot, especially because you cannot readily lower it (and I think the future direction for this pad is shortened toward the trunk, rounded and spread more laterally - toward the back which should add dramatic depth to the composition).

I agree with Darlene that the deadwood of the old apex adds interest. This might also be brought into play with the lowered/levelled attitude of the pot.

At any rate, I think this lemon can be made into some nice lemonade. As Crazy says, "I want to touch!"
 

ColinFraser

Masterpiece
Messages
2,370
Reaction score
5,698
Location
Central Coast, California
USDA Zone
9b
Man, that's a tough call; thanks for sharing the thought process.

The base clearly shows the best in option A, but overall, I like the tree in your updated photo (post 34) of B, with the branch lowered as you mentioned. The gestalt just feels better in that one.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Oh, this tree has character all right.

No, really. Almost all these trees, the imported grafted JWP on JBP trunks have flaws. Otherwise, they would have been purchased by someone in Jspan. We get the ones they don't want.

By the way, I've heard that the demand for these in Japan is so low, they're not even bothering to dig them out of the fields!

The seductive thing about these trees are the beautiful tight little tufts of blue-green needles.
 

Paradox

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
9,339
Reaction score
11,413
Location
Long Island, NY
USDA Zone
7a
Well, the first thing to know is they grow SLOW. So, don't be doing trunk chops thinking they will grow back out in a year or two. They won't. They don't back bud readily. They will, but treasure and protect those back buds.

They do not tolerate decandling. The growth you get in the Spring is what you get. If you get more than two candles extend, reduce to two. If you get a really strong candle that extends too far beyond the others, break it off to match the others. Be sure to leave some needles.

Since the spring is the only time you get growth, the new needles are hardened off by the end of summer. The previous year's needles will start to turn yellow and brown, and fall off easily. Knock them off, and wire. The crotches of JWP split open easily so be careful. You should make sure the tips, the tufts of foliage, are pointing up. They shouldn't be pointed straight up, up at about a 45 degree angle. If they are pointed down, they will die. Straight out, and they'll be weak. There should be no hanging needles.

Repotting is just like JBP. In fact, most of them are grafted onto JBP stock like this one.

Styling: JWP should have rounder, softer apexes that JBP. Since these are mountain pines, it is acceptable to have jins and Shari.

The key thing is to try to keep the foliage close to the trunk healthy. The branches will eventually get too long, and have to be cut back. I've seen many "hollow" JWPs. By that I mean they appear to have a full canopy, but when you look inside, it's bare. Only long thin bare branches with only a tiny tuft of foliage at the end. Try to avoid that by keeping the canopy open by wiring and creating oafs of foliage rather than a "helmet".

I hope this helps.


So do you do candle breaking every year or do you give them a break if you repot that year?

When is the best time to do major branch pruning? Winter or early spring or ???

Ive read that to promote back budding you should cut back the current year's growth but leave a number of bundles of needles depending on the strength of the area in question. Is this correct?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Paradox, if the growth is so vigorous to warrant candle breaking, you can do it every year. Mine, however, grow so slowly I never have to. I may have to thin to two candles.

Osoyoung also mentioned cutting back the current year's growth to stimulate back budding. Again, I've never done it. I guess it would be similiar to candle breaking. Just instead of doing the strong ones for balancing, it's done all over. I've never done it because I'm only getting 1/2 inch of growth, and I think I'd just weaken the tree too much. If others have done this before, I'd be interested in hearing their results. Either good or bad.

These do back bud, just very reluctantly.

Also note that there are many, many cultivars of JWP. More than JBP. They are propagated by grafting. Some back bud more readily than others.

My tree in this thread is an Azuma. And is the most common of the grafted cultivars.
 
Top Bottom