How much did you pay for that?

[johng]

(Many on this site imply that "anyone" can make a good bonsai out of great material, that using great material is somehow "cheating".)

I don't want to derail this thread but I really don't think that is the way anyone feels... Yes, it is perhaps easier to create a quality tree if you start from great material....but it still requires quality skills. I also don't think anyone believes that it is cheating to start with great material...some folks just choose a different route for their own reasons. I am sure a few are jealous because they either do not have the money or available resources to start with great material...but that still doesn't imply someone who does is a cheat.

No big deal..I just wanted to clarify your statement.
John

 

[Victrinia Ensor]

This is always a touchy subject.

Yes, it's great material. Does that mean I'm not a good artist because I didn't start off with a stick in a pot? (Many on this site imply that "anyone" can make a good bonsai out of great material, that using great material is somehow "cheating".)

What kills me is when that thought of cheating is taken to the extreme that if you didn't start it from seed yourself, the experience is less valid. It's an absurd position, but one people are fond of taking.

I spend on average $300 a tree... with the most I've ever paid being $600... But I live somewhere that it's possible to get great trees without giving up your shirt. Now some of my most valuable trees/material is all collected.... and that done by the hubby and I.... We have the investment of money in getting there etc... but when broken down by tree, it still ends up being in the same range as everything else.

The most I've ever spent per inch was a Japanese Zelkova, imported... $250 for 3/4 inch trunk about 6 inches tall.... worth every penny. lol

 

[Skinnygoomba]

Discussing prices on a forum with people who are all in the same hobby does not seem to be in poor taste.

Discussing prices at a dinner party is, however, and the answers are usually reserved for close friends.

 

[barrosinc]

I don't think it is cheating BUT... I well prefer to pay 50 bucks and turn it into a 1.000 dollar tree than pay 1.000 and maintain its value. The second gives me a lot more satisfaction but not less valid than the first, maintaining a good tree isn´t easy.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I don't think it is cheating BUT... I well prefer to pay 50 bucks and turn it into a 1.000 dollar tree than pay 1.000 and maintain its value. The second gives me a lot more satisfaction but not less valid than the first, maintaining a good tree isn´t easy.

If you're able to turn a $50 tree into a $1000 tree, why couldn't you turn a $1000 tree into a $2000 tree?
The former is tougher than the latter; both are plenty rewarding, but in different ways.

 

[fourteener]

Very American of us to take the look of something and feel the need to translate it into dollars. I'm as guilty as anyone else by the way. It's like the old story about the mountain...

You see a mountain in the distance and you have one of three very common reactions to it. 1. I could climb it, conquer it, stake my flag at the top. The need to conquer. 2.We could exploit it. Figure out how to make money off of it. Sell off the timber, mine the ore, make a ski resort, build homes with a view on top of it. The need for gain.

What we could(and seldom) do is #3... to simply take in it's beauty, appreciate it for what it is, enjoy it from the other side of the valley.

To sit and look at a piece of art or a tree or any other beautiful thing(like my wife!!) and just appreciate it...without any calculations or conversions.

Art is what inspires you, causes a reaction inside of you. I gather and buy things that inspire me. As I grow in this hobby different things inspire, some of the things i've acquired make me wonder what I was thinking. I really don't want to make this hobby be about money in/money out.

When art gets reduced to a spreadsheet, it might miss it's way and become the antithesis of it's point.

An interesting difference in the world of bonsai verses other art forms... paint and canvas costs the same for every painter, but some paintings sell for more.

 

[barrosinc]

If you're able to turn a $50 tree into a $1000 tree, why couldn't you turn a $1000 tree into a $2000 tree?
The former is tougher than the latter; both are plenty rewarding, but in different ways.

Seems correct, but my guess is most "finished" trees stay the same but minor pruning and repoting.

 

[Adair M]

Trees are never finished. They grow, evolve, gain character.

That is, if they are maintained.

Over the years, I've seen nice bonsai sold to someone who really didn't know how to take care of it. Oh, they watered it. Fed it a bit. Maybe. May or may not have repotted it. If they did repot it, they probably over potted it.

Didn't wire it. If was wired when they bought it, they either let it cut in, or removed it too soon. In either case, they didn't rewire it. At least not well.

And, usually, it was never cut back. The branches got long any leggy. No foliage close to the trunk.

So, after a decade of mismanagement, they have taken a bonsai worth maybe $2,000 and turned it into a landscape tree worth about $50.

I've seen it happen too often.

 

[Adair M]

Many underestimate the amount if work required to maintain "finished" material.

Since there are more twigs, there's more to wire. More to defoliate. More buds to "select", more to cut back. Thinning is crucial. You can't let a stray branch just run, or else it might thicken a branch too much in relation to the others.

There is always the need to make sure the tree stays balanced. Some trees want to grow up, their apexes will grow too strong. Others, just the opposite.

No, refinement is hard to do. Lots of attention to detail!

 

[PaulH]

So, after a decade of mismanagement, they have taken a bonsai worth maybe $2,000 and turned it into a landscape tree worth about $50.

I've seen it happen too often.

Sadly true. I've sold trees that I happened to see again after a few years and this is usually the case. I sold one of my best California junipers years ago and when I saw it again most of what was once great deadwood had been allowed to rot away.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Interesting thread. I never ask someone what they have paid for anything. The exception would be a close friend I lean on for advice and I know he would not take my inquiry the wrong way.

One point I think we need to remember on cost of material is what one thinks is expensive isn't to another. Where I cut off on price may very well be another's starting point. All in all a talented person will make "something" out of nothing--but it is easier with quality to start.

I have learned this past year that what I want tends to cost more than I first thought. This has proven true particularly on pots as well as trees.

 

[larlamonde]

Very American of us to take the look of something and feel the need to translate it into dollars. I'm as guilty as anyone else by the way. It's like the old story about the mountain...

You see a mountain in the distance and you have one of three very common reactions to it. 1. I could climb it, conquer it, stake my flag at the top. The need to conquer. 2.We could exploit it. Figure out how to make money off of it. Sell off the timber, mine the ore, make a ski resort, build homes with a view on top of it. The need for gain.

What we could(and seldom) do is #3... to simply take in it's beauty, appreciate it for what it is, enjoy it from the other side of the valley.

To sit and look at a piece of art or a tree or any other beautiful thing(like my wife!!) and just appreciate it...without any calculations or conversions.

Art is what inspires you, causes a reaction inside of you. I gather and buy things that inspire me. As I grow in this hobby different things inspire, some of the things i've acquired make me wonder what I was thinking. I really don't want to make this hobby be about money in/money out.

When art gets reduced to a spreadsheet, it might miss it's way and become the antithesis of it's point.

An interesting difference in the world of bonsai verses other art forms... paint and canvas costs the same for every painter, but some paintings sell for more.

Fourteener I think your missing my point or this thread has developed a bit. I do bonsai purely for the beauty. Eye candy. Just to sit there and look a miniature tree and imagine myself under it. I know the time and patience it takes to develop and care for a tree and just the overall beauty of nature. Then I say to myself "boy would I love to have that" I wonder what that costs. I realize that cost and value are two different things.

 

[larlamonde]

Picked up this Tsukumo cypress for $90 at club members sale. The shimp. $175 at an auction and the spruce for $40 also.

 

[fourteener]

Fourteener I think your missing my point or this thread has developed a bit. I do bonsai purely for the beauty. Eye candy. Just to sit there and look a miniature tree and imagine myself under it. I know the time and patience it takes to develop and care for a tree and just the overall beauty of nature. Then I say to myself "boy would I love to have that" I wonder what that costs. I realize that cost and value are two different things.

2 things...

1. Threads always wander
2. I haven't missed your original question, you wove it together for me in your own post.

I hate to think we reduce art to monetary values. I never go to an art museum and ask how much? I see my backyard as a demonstration of art, not a store with price tags!

 

[bonsairxmd]

It is what it is. Art has value..actual monetary value. Bonsai have value. Can be different for each person, society, etc. I don't get too hung up on the whole artsy esoteric philosophy or whatever you want to call it.

I think it is good for people to see what tress cost on average so someone knows if they are getting ripped off or not. Again, that value can be different for each person but one can get a general idea none the less.

 

[fourteener]

So let's be honest, if you really want to know the value of trees...

NeBonsai
Bonsaiwest
Brussels
Gregorybeach Bonsai
Goldenarrowbonsai
ebay
backcountry

Numerous people could add two dozen more. When trees disappear people are buying them. When they go on sale and stay on the page people think it's priced to high. If you want to buy and trade any commodity you figure out value with research. When I see people showing their new stuff, I actually don't have to ask what they paid for it. I've already seen it and know where it came from. The mathematician researcher in me can figure out market value just like every other American that trades in cars, boats, widgets, pure bred dogs.

I've already given everyone my take on the art side of this. For those interested in the monetary side, do some research, know your market, buy stuff you love that is great. When you see that you can buy 10X the tree from Andy Smith as you can on ebay...you float to his site! Go Andy!!

 

[raydomz]

There have been some really interesting threads here lately...
As I scroll through this a couple of things become apparent.
1. It is the slow time of the year
2. People seem to be most proud of how little they are able to pay for trees.

Personally I think the cost is irrelevant to discuss unless you are in the business of selling bonsai or like myself, are on a budget. And even then The only people that really care are close friends and my wife. As someone who sells artwork I can tell you that collectors do not purchase based on their idea of a fair price in relation to time and materials, there is much more that goes in to it in a buyers mind. A lot of it comes from meeting the clients at openings, talking about the work etc. That being said - bonsai will not become an art form in this country as long as we are all talking about the logical values of them, collectors of any art don't care, in fact respect and higher prices go hand in hand.

Would someone like Ryan Neil be making the same declaration if his 20k tree was listed at 3k? Food for thought.

Name, presumed expertise, evident time involved and ultimately the viewers own feeling of the work are what determines whether or not they want to acquire a piece. There is no blue book.

 

[larlamonde]

It is what it is. Art has value..actual monetary value. Bonsai have value. Can be different for each person, society, etc. I don't get too hung up on the whole artsy esoteric philosophy or whatever you want to call it.

I think it is good for people to see what tress cost on average so someone knows if they are getting ripped off or not. Again, that value can be different for each person but one can get a general idea none the less.

Thanks for driving home my point Chad!

 

[armetisius]

What kills me is when that thought of cheating is taken to the extreme that if you didn't start it from seed yourself, the experience is less valid. It's an absurd position, but one people are fond of taking.

And what kills me are the "collectors" who buy the equivalent of a Renoir or van Gogh
and seem to take the attitude that they are somehow NOW transformed into Renoir
or van Gogh. Now THAT is always funny. I find it especially entertaining when trying
to discuss anything about "their" masterpiece yields "huh?" [or vague/wrong answers]
about the basic horticulture of their plants/trees.

 

[fourteener]

And what kills me are the "collectors" who buy the equivalent of a Renoir or van Gogh
and seem to take the attitude that they are somehow NOW transformed into Renoir
or van Gogh. Now THAT is always funny. I find it especially entertaining when trying
to discuss anything about "their" masterpiece yields "huh?" [or vague/wrong answers]
about the basic horticulture of their plants/trees.

It is unfortunate when someone gathers a masterpiece and works on it with pre-k abilities. I have gathered a couple of things that have forced me to step up my game!