How much work can I do on this Spruce?

[karen82]

I have this little $10 nursery CO blue spruce I got last summer. It was a big bushy thing and I cut off the whole top (50-60% of the foliage) last fall and cut a few needles on some of the strongest remaining branches.
It survived and actually seems pretty healthy.
I know Spruce don't tolerate too much work, but I was wondering if I could shorten some of the candles now, or if the tree needs another season to recover.
The reason I'm asking is that a lot of the new candles are on branches I intend to eventually remove (especially those lower ones) or at least shorten later. I left them on just so I wouldn't be removing too much foliage at one time. So I don't really want the tree to waste a lot of energy in growing these branches out more. I want to try to get it to put more energy into some of the weak branches if this is possible.

Also, the tree is still in nursery soil and needs repotting next fall or spring so I do need it strong for that.

I know it's just a cheap nursery tree but I really don't want to kill it.

 

[bonsaichile]

Those branches look vigorous enough. You can pinch the new growth, but what that will do is generate a second flush of growth with new buds forming at the wounds. To balance the tree, pinch more of the strongest (longer) shoots and less of the weaker. Start witht the weak ones, and a week later, pinch the strong ones. Then, let it recover until the Fall.

Good luck!

 

[Adair M]

Those branches look vigorous enough. You can pinch the new growth, but what that will do is generate a second flush of growth with new buds forming at the wounds. To balance the tree, pinch more of the strongest (longer) shoots and less of the weaker. Start witht the weak ones, and a week later, pinch the strong ones. Then, let it recover until the Fall.

Good luck!

No! No! No!

DON’T pinch the new growth! The tree needs to let the new growth run. If you pinch the new growth, the roots don’t grow. If the roots don’t grow, the three weakens and dies!

I know, it’s long been taught to pinch them. And there’s a special technique on how to do it so that you remove the tip and not hurt the needles behind. JUST SAY NO! That’s an old technique that’s been shown to be harmful, if not fatal to your tree, and is simply not needed.

Let it push out new growth until it stops growing this summer. Then, examine the new shoots, and you will see little dormant buds about every 3/4 inch along the shoot. You can cut back to one of those. Or, if the whole shoot is too long, you can cut back to a branch that’s closer to the trunk. After you do, you might get a second flush of growth. Because you’ll have lots of new spring roots.

They backbud well if they’re strong. Let them grow! Then cut back. Later.

 

[bonsaichile]

Wait, Adair, I am confused. I have been breaking the new shoots as I described with good results (increased ramification, shorter needles) for a few years now. My spruces dont seem to be weakened and they have a good root ball. Can you explain in more detail this other technique you are advising here? Thanks, I just want to learn!

 

[Djtommy]

I know, it’s long been taught to pinch them. And there’s a special technique on how to do it so that you remove the tip and not hurt the needles behind. JUST SAY NO! That’s an old technique that’s been shown to be harmful, if not fatal to your tree, and is simply not needed.

Where did you hear that? Pinching is an old technique yes but It’s stll practiced today, I do it myself aswell. And I never heard this is harmful for the tree. That said I don’t do it on weak branches but they don’t extend much anywayz.

 

[Adair M]

Wait, Adair, I am confused. I have been breaking the new shoots as I described with good results (increased ramification, shorter needles) for a few years now. My spruces dont seem to be weakened and they have a good root ball. Can you explain in more detail this other technique you are advising here? Thanks, I just want to learn!

You’ve been lucky.

My technique is to let the shoots run. Until they stop. Then cut back to a bud. Usually mid summer. After you cutback, you should get a second flush of growth.

Allowing the shoots to grow encourages roots to grow.

 

[bonsaichile]

I guess what I should do is get 2 cheap Alberta from Lowes and use them to try both techniques, so I can compare then. What you say, Adair, makes sense, but it is not what I have observed. A little experimentation might be in order then!

 

[bonsaichile]

And, Karen, sorry: I did not mean to hijack your thread!

 

[0soyoung]

IMHO, one can pinch off spruce shoots (in the same manner as pinching pine candles) before the new needles are distinguishable. This will limit the length of the shoot and possibly induce buds for a second flush near the shoot base. Then, as @Adair M is saying, wait until after the new shoot is hardened to cut back to a bud. A shoot without a bud will become a dead shoot.

 

[Adair M]

I guess what I should do is get 2 cheap Alberta from Lowes and use them to try both techniques, so I can compare then. What you say, Adair, makes sense, but it is not what I have observed. A little experimentation might be in order then!

Lol. I don’t think anything works on Alberta!

I had a nice yamadori Colorado Blue that I took to a workshop with Larry Jackel. Who is supposed to be the guru of CBS. He had me pinch every shoot.

3 months later, dead.

Sorry, never again!

 

[bonsaichile]

Lol. I don’t think anything works on Alberta!

I had a nice yamadori Colorado Blue that I took to a workshop with Larry Jackel. Who is supposed to be the guru of CBS. He had me pinch every shoot.

3 months later, dead.

Sorry, never again!

Sorry to hear that about your CBS. Pinching has worked on my ADS. I now have a nice englemann's spruce I collected a month ago that is sprouting with a vengeance. Dont want to mess it up, so I guess I have at least 2 more years to learn whether to pinch or not to pinch!

 

[wireme]

I do the same as Adair recommends. Have been doing it that way since around 2007, wasn’t happy with pinching results and found cutting back to work better for me. I do think there is a time and place to pinch but I’m still working without pinching to see if results keep satisfying me. So far they have.
The difference for me is that I cut back in spring before growth. My season is probably too short to get a second flush or even new buds so I let all the foliage stay to gather energy through the whole season.
I definitely would not consider pinching the spruce in this thread, with the pruning it’s already had it will backbud plenty anyways.

 

[wireme]

To elaborate a little. What I didn’t like about pinching wasn’t that I saw weakened or dead trees it was where the buds formed. Pinching was giving me poodle ends, a big whorl of buds at the base of the pinched shoot and a couple at the pinch site. They could be thinned and it would give lots of ramification and short internodes which is useful. Cutting back seemed to give me more buds forming further back on old wood than pinching so long term options to keep a canopy in check seem better. Always buds forming inside to cut back to rather than high ramification on the distal ends of branches. They were englemann spruce that I was pinching in those days, I’ve since heard results can be a bit species specific.
Knowing what the results will be and combining the methods a bit when needed is probably best I would say. I have still been not pinching at all and just cutting back to see what I can achieve with that method over years.

 

[sorce]

2 cheap Alberta

don’t think anything works on Alberta!

Right!

I have done this spring pinching at 2 different times with Alberta......

Noted I wasn't thrilled with the results either time...

With an aesthetic "eff no"...

Pinching was giving me poodle ends, a big whorl of buds at the base of the pinched shoot and a couple at the pinch site

Just a "possibility" of weakness should have us completely forgetting this "technique".

And it's not a "possibility"..its a scientific fact. Wether we can, or care to realize it.

@karen82 I have a CBS I been contemplating. For all bonsai intents and purposes it is in the exact same condition as yours.

Because pinching some lower shoots off a Alberta caused higher still dormant buds to pop for me once...I considered it for this Blue.......

But....it simply doesn't have the strength to risk it.

So long as everything grows well and pest free....this amount of foliage on our trees should be enough to get them thru a potting after the solstice.

After that....it's kind of a health race...
Being able to lop the vigorous top again...
After it's sure healthy enough....
But before the small middle branches with old needles and no glowing buds die.

If I lose the race...I will lose those middle branches and I will change the design.

If I FORCE the race....
I can forget about a design all together!
As the tree will likely die.



Sorce

 

[karen82]

Thanks for the responses. I do like hearing all the opinions.
I couldn't find much spruce-specific info, the seemingly best article I could find recommended cutting candles on stronger branches in half, but this was a grower in the UK - different climate and (probably) different species of spruce.
I guess I'll just leave the tree alone to rebuild strength for the most part (but I have to admit I cut a little off some of the candles on one small bottom branch, just to see what will happen).