How to lower water pH...cost effectively?

[Poink88]

Thanks Dick & Lordy.

I called some pool suppliers here and they seem to recommend muriatic/hydrochloric acid and I am a bit leery using that on my plans. They also told me it takes at least a couple hours to lower the pH so I cannot just mix it as I go.

I am investigating the pH Down and seems like the active ingredient is Phosphoric acid. Amazon sells the a food grade 85% concentrate I might try if I cannot find it (pH down) locally.

 

[Poink88]

This is perhaps the most sensible, cost-effective way to do it, I'd think.
However, storing enough water and waiting for it to acidify (which wouldn't take all that long) can present storage problems in a small space--not to mention the issue with mosquitos (which can be solved) and the HOA...

I guess your solution may depend on the volume of water you're using every day...

Right! As mentioned, I cannot have the container...well maybe I can if I hide it better but I probably need 20-25 gallons twice a week with a few gallons for the smaller pots now and then.

I am too lazy to do the peat moss route...I'd rather deal with the chemicals (acids) if ever.

 

[Squeaker]

Hi, im new to the hobby.... so please check my idea before trying it lol. Not sure of anyone reccomended it yet, but what about ph buffer products used for freshwater fishtanks? Im more savvy in the fishtank hobby than i am in bonsai, so thats just what came to mind. Its a powder and it will adjust the ph up or down, depending on which product you buy. Just a thought, hoping others will chime in either confirming or declining the reccomendation.

 

[rockm]

"Right! As mentioned, I cannot have the container...well maybe I can if I hide it better"

Have you talked to the HOA? You could ask them about rain water storage barrels and systems--they are "green" solutions in drought-stricken areas. They're not all that expensive and if there isn't enough rain, you can slip some tap water into them to "age" it with the pH solution. I can't think of a reason an HOA would prohibit such an environmentally-friendly set-up...

http://www.raintankdepot.com/c-3111/rainreserve-rain-barrel-systems

 

[GrimLore]

10 2 gallon watering cans perhaps properly placed around all of those plant stands...

 

[Poink88]

Have you talked to the HOA? You could ask them about rain water storage barrels and systems--they are "green" solutions in drought-stricken areas. They're not all that expensive and if there isn't enough rain, you can slip some tap water into them to "age" it with the pH solution. I can't think of a reason an HOA would prohibit such an environmentally-friendly set-up...

http://www.raintankdepot.com/c-3111/rainreserve-rain-barrel-systems

If ever, I like these 270-325 gallon totes better. I can get them for around $125-$135 here

http://austin.craigslist.org/grd/3559577002.html
http://austin.craigslist.org/grd/3577973287.html

City of Austin actually gives away free rain barrels...I just did not avail of it then. They usually do it annually so might check on that later.

 

[Poink88]

10 2 gallon watering cans perhaps properly placed around all of those plant stands...

Since I like Haws...this could be very expensive...about $650. No thank you. LOL

 

[rockm]

Those collection tanks are nice, BUT if your HOA is sensitive to keeping things looking neat and tidy, those could present a problem...

 

[GrimLore]

Do you have a Garage or shed?

 

[Poink88]

Do you have a Garage or shed?

I have a 2 car garage that I can barely park my car in now. No more room for anything else. LOL No shed.

 

[coh]

Dario,

You may remember that there were extensive discussions about this issue on IBC within the past year or two, might be worth looking those up.

Have you had a complete water analysis done on your tap water? If not, I'd suggest that as the first step. I know the water companies put out summaries every year (or more often), but in my experience those summaries don't include everything that could be relevant to growing plants.

As for adding acid...my understanding is that all of the options suggested (vinegar, pH down, muriatic) will work. There was one poster on IBC, the guy from Australia, who recommended using battery acid (sulfuric). I have tried this and it does work, and it is pretty cheap. It's a little more dangerous than pH down, but his argument was that it adds a nutrient (sulfur) that plants need, whereas the other choices do not. Of course, if your water already has plenty of sulfur (thus the test) this doesn't matter. But adding hydrochloric adds chlorine which you don't need.

The peat barrel suggestion is interesting. The one thing I noticed with my water - when I added enough acid to about 5 gallons to bring the pH down to about 6, the pH tended to drift upward again over several days if the water was not used. I don't completely understand the chemistry, but it's a known effect.

Have you been noticing symptoms that would be consistent with hard water problems, nutrient deficiencies, etc?

Chris

 

[GrimLore]

Dario,

You may remember that there were extensive discussions about this issue on IBC within the past year or two, might be worth looking those up.

Have you had a complete water analysis done on your tap water? If not, I'd suggest that as the first step. I know the water companies put out summaries every year (or more often), but in my experience those summaries don't include everything that could be relevant to growing plants.

As for adding acid...my understanding is that all of the options suggested (vinegar, pH down, muriatic) will work. There was one poster on IBC, the guy from Australia, who recommended using battery acid (sulfuric). I have tried this and it does work, and it is pretty cheap. It's a little more dangerous than pH down, but his argument was that it adds a nutrient (sulfur) that plants need, whereas the other choices do not. Of course, if your water already has plenty of sulfur (thus the test) this doesn't matter. But adding hydrochloric adds chlorine which you don't need.

The peat barrel suggestion is interesting. The one thing I noticed with my water - when I added enough acid to about 5 gallons to bring the pH down to about 6, the pH tended to drift upward again over several days if the water was not used. I don't completely understand the chemistry, but it's a known effect.

Have you been noticing symptoms that would be consistent with hard water problems, nutrient deficiencies, etc?

Chris

Good point - I am certain the Wife had that done and I think we used a Cornell University Cooperative Extension(150-200usd) and the results were a bit overwhelming. Good news is she is an Enviornmental Engineer and we were able to come up with our system pretty darn inexpensive.

 

[Poink88]

Chris,

I worked on the water plants myself so I know a bit about it . The chemists are my buddies too. They are lowering the pH but it has to be done over many years so the (decades worth of) calcium deposit inside the pipes will not suddenly get dislodged/collapse and potentially disable our pipe/water delivery system.

What you are referring to is the buffering effect IIRC and in my case it is very likely to happen because of the calcium particulates.

I remember that IBC discussion...probably even bookmarked but I haven't been there for a while and don't feel like going back in yet. (I did find a thread about muck mix through Google that I posted here recently).

Re: deficiencies, not yet being new but I also notice a lot of mineral buildup on my plants (roots, trunk, and pots) now. Come to think of it, I did notice some on my house plants that got resolved when I replaced the potting soil.

 

[GrimLore]

Chris,

I worked on the water plants myself so I know a bit about it . The chemists are my buddies too. They are lowering the pH but it has to be done over many years so the (decades worth of) calcium deposit inside the pipes will not suddenly get dislodged/collapse and potentially disable our pipe/water delivery system.

What you are referring to is the buffering effect IIRC and in my case it is very likely to happen because of the calcium particulates.

I remember that IBC discussion...probably even bookmarked but I haven't been there for a while and don't feel like going back in yet. (I did find a thread about muck mix through Google that I posted here recently).

Re: deficiencies, not yet being new but I also notice a lot of mineral buildup on my plants (roots, trunk, and pots) now. Come to think of it, I did notice some on my house plants that got resolved when I replaced the potting soil.

The build up of crap on our plants stopped with the simple addition of in-line canister filters. There was just way to much Iron and other things that "cheap" things you can do yourself may fix. By thw way if you "opt" for and do a pro analysis I am CERTAIN my Wife can and will give you the guidance. She is "Published" and I am not blowing smoke - she is an intelligent and Loving person always helping.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Dario,

The phosphoric acid is the way to go. Get the stuff off of Amazon, the stuff sold for aquariums is not that concentrated and you will find yourself using a ton of it ( it is kinda pricey). I had a 110 gallon fish tank and used the food grade phosphoric acid to adjust the pH.

One thing to be aware of, public water systems add buffers to the water to help maintian a certain pH range and no matter how much you adjust, it will eventually creep back up to its original range.
In my tank, usually 2-3 days. My tap water was 8-9 and I would adjust down to 6, it would never stay. I eventually gave up, and, it didn't make any difference, the fish and the plants were just as happy. Sometimes I think we make things harder on ourselves than need be.

Just curious, why are you concerned about the pH? I have had azaleas for years now and watered them with the same high pH water with no ill effects. Occasionally, after a few seasons, the leaves might not be as deep green as normal (chlorisis maybe?), but an application of Ironite, or similar, would green them right up.

Just my two cents, hope it helps.

John

 

[Poink88]

Thanks John.

I am really leaning towards the concentrated Phosphoric acid after my research.

pH concern is just because it is way higher than what I read it should be. I do not want to wait and try to fix it later after my plants have weakened considerably. Maybe I am worrying over nothing?

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Dario,

Maybe not worrying too much over nothing, but maybe over-thinking it. Most municipalities have a pH above neutral, it is easier on the pipes and equopment, and they add buffers to maintain it there. So even if you adjust and then water, the residual left in the pots and soil will eventually creep up. Just like with my fish tank, I used to constantly stress over the pH, spent a bunch of money (money that could have went to other aquairium stuff) on chemicals, etc, and in the end, still ended up with a high pH. I finally just left it alone, fish and plants didn't even notice.

If still decide to tinker with the pH, use the phosphoric acid, not sulfuric acid or HCl. Neither of those are good for the plants.

Maybe you cluld do a test for one summer, two trees of the same species, water one with the water "neat" and the other with adjusted ph and see what happens.

I water all of mine with tap water and have been for years and have had no adverse effects. To me there are too many other things to worry about: sun/shade, pests, soil drainage, pot size, diseases...and the bane of my existence, squirrels.

Just my two cents,

John

 

[coh]

If still decide to tinker with the pH, use the phosphoric acid, not sulfuric acid or HCl. Neither of those are good for the plants.

Please elaborate. My understanding is that many nurseries use sulfuric acid to adjust the pH of their water (if necessary). I've done a fair amount of research and haven't run into any references that suggest not to use sulfuric acid.

Hydrochloric, I agree...that adds chlorine that isn't necessary and can be detrimental.

Chris

P.S. Useful reference: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/hil/hil-558.html they suggest using citric acid

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Yeah, my bad. I am at work and was thinking faster than typing. I meant to say if you are going to use sulfuric, don't use battery acid, unless you know it is pure. Some of it has additives that might be harmful to trees/ plants. Plus Sulfuric is alot more reactive than phosphoric and can be more hazardous to handle.

When handling any acid, especially concentrated, please wear rubber gloves and eye protection.

John

 

[wireme]

"If i wanted to adjust my PH the cheapest way I could for plants, I would fill a 55 gallon barrel full of my tap water and begin filling it with peat moss. After everything had settled
organically I'd test the ph to see where I was and what more was needed. next time you need to refill the barrel, you'd know exactly how much peat to throw in and how long to let it settle before use. expect the color of the water to be a brownish cast."

This is perhaps the most sensible, cost-effective way to do it, I'd think.
However, storing enough water and waiting for it to acidify (which wouldn't take all that long) can present storage problems in a small space--not to mention the issue with mosquitos (which can be solved) and the HOA...

I guess your solution may depend on the volume of water you're using every day...

I am pasting a quote from the article I posted a link to about dissolved 02 in water that could lead one to believe that water standing in peat moss might contain a bunch of nasty critters.


Too little dissolved oxygen creates a compounded negative effect—as the beneficial organisms die out because of the lack of dissolved oxygen, the ideal conditions for anaerobic pathogenic organisms are also created. Almost every pathogenic disease related to the plant’s rhizosphere is anaerobic