If You Are Serious About Bonsai

[Anonymous User]

Price has nothing at all to do with quality.

I doubt that I could disagree with this more. It doesn't logically follow from your previous statement, it will need a great deal more evidence to back it up. If you round up the best 100 $5.00 bonsai, and place them next to the best $500 bonsai, do you mean to tell me that about half of the cheapest ones will surpass in quality, originality, and artistry about half of the more expensive? Let's compare apples to apples.

Alrighty then, I have a collected jack Pine that I will sell you for $20,000.00 and you can even make payments on it. It must be outstanding material, right? According to your logic, it must be quality material because it has a high price tag...I'll tell you what, I'll let you have it for 10 grand, you can still tell your friends it cost 20 grand so that they will know it is quality material too.

Silly isn't it?

Chris, price has nothing to do with quality.

If Walter was visiting me and fell down, giving his head a whack and then sold me his 10 best trees for 5.00 each, would they automatically become less because of the price I paid for them? Of course not.

If you bought my 20 grand Jack Pine would it be better material because of the price you paid? Of course not, it would still be crap.

If Andy Smith told me he had to make more room and offered me 20 of his best Pines at a mere 10 bucks apiece, would their quality suddenly become less because of the price, of course not.

If I paid 20 times the asking price for a hundred imported badly designed Ficus, would that automatically make them excellent material? No, it would simply make me a fool.

If I stumbled upon a old mugo at a traditional nursery, back benched, forgotten mostly but hacked back every few years to keep it bushy, with a thick trunk, full of movement, tons of branches, and yet in good health and the owner answered my price inquiry with the words, "That thing? Hell, give me five bucks and get it out of here" would I be best to assume that the price was too cheap and therefore, according to Chris, it must be crap? I think not.

Quality material is quality material, no matter where it was found or how much was spent on it.



Will

 

[bonsai barry]

In the hour I've been away from the computer, this thread has morphed into a different topic. Price was just one facet, the real question was whether or not good bonsai could be obtained from nursery stock.

I think the best way to determine this would be to go to some of the major collection in the U.S. and determine if any of the tree came from nursery stock. A second method would be to search books that have quality trees that list how they were obtained. I did a quick review of "Outstanding American Bonsai" by Randy Clark. Of the 50 trees twenty-five were either collected, or cuttings or grown from seed; nine trees were specifically identified as coming from a one or five gallon can. The others did not mention or were shohin (which were exepted from the original quote).

If anyone has the book "Timeless Trees" and if it mentions how the original stock was obtained, it would be interesting to see the results.

On a personal note, the majority of my trees have come from nurseries, so I hope to prove the Peter Warren wrong.

 

[Bill S]

Hmmm as I read everyones post I find I don't disagree with any of your statements, grouper yours though made this thought run thru my mind

- yes I have a tendency to be called OC, I don't see it that way at all, I think a basic tenant that I have is - If it's worth doing, do it well, half a$$ isn't "good enough" for me, why waste the effort if you aren't going to do it right. That said I may or may not end up with trees that show enough to be put up in a show, but damned if I won't try to get at least one in a show, there is something to be said for a good college try.

I realize not everyone takes that approach, believe me they don't, but if you write in and ask what do you all think of my baby and it's junk, it should be called junk, because if you are calling it your baby you should be serious about it. Then again this thread is - Are you serious about bonsai, if you aren't nothing said on this site should bug anyone.

Will no question that it's all in the tree, not the money, and yes a master will be much more likely to be able to get a depot tree and come up with a long distance at least good tree. Yamadori is another subject all together, it's not nursery start, it has the elements working against it so to speak, and there are good and not good trees in this catagory as well, it's a choice thing. Working out of most reputable bonsai nurseries is going to give you a 90% head start, not saying that there isn't crap trees at many bonsai nurseries theres is plenty, and of differing price ranges, but they still give a head start over trees grown for landscape. Again the one off here and there that is the exception can be a stand out, but how often does that happen. The pre bonsai one the other hand offers a start in the right direction, talent and artistic impression takes over at that point, and the vision either works or it doesn't.

I think where the problem really picks up is when we see a post about a styling attemp and we see the wrong stuff cut off, with a style choice that doesn't work for a tree, with no real conception of how it all works, and people getting all bent, a decent prebonsai will take care of half of the boo boos made by the uninitiated, especially if it's expensive - ooo I better read up FIRST to make sure I do it right.

Grahm Potter has an article on his sight, I'll get a link asap, but it's a great read, and has completely change my approach to bonsai, I'm not ready for Walters signiture anytime soon, but I am sooo much more serious now than after my first 8 - 10 first years over and over again.

 

[Anonymous User]

In the hour I've been away from the computer, this thread has morphed into a different topic. Price was just one facet, the real question was whether or not good bonsai could be obtained from nursery stock.

Actually Peter used the words cheap and inexpensive, inferring that price dictates quality, hence the following discussion on the subject of price. Although I do like your proposal better.



Will

 

[Attila Soos]

If you bought my 20 grand Jack Pine would it be better material because of the price you paid? Of course not, it would still be crap.

Will, come on, there is no IF's. Chris would not pay $20 grand.
You are mixing apples with oranges.

Price and quality IS the same if the price is set in an "arm's lenght" transaction between willing participants in a market with a large number of knowledgeable people.
On the other hand, price and quality are NOT the same if the transaction is a special deal between two people, or the people are connected at some level, if the buyer/seller is not knowledgeable, or if there is no efficient market. So, your example of paying $20 grand for your pine is silly and you are either fooling around or just missing the point (I sincerely hope that it is the former).

So, back to the thread, when we say $5 nursery stock, we mean that this plant is not worth more in any circumstances. We don't mean a hidden gem that whole world missed it, and you are the only one that just discovered it, as the lucky find of your life. I see a lot of "sticks in a pot" on the Internet, that are not hidden gems, but plain $5 plants.

And your gnarled and forgotten mugho in the nursery does exists sometimes, but as my eyes get more experienced, it becomes rarer and rarer. The plant that I once thought of as "with great potential" starts looking very mediocre and ordinary, as of late. So your example just shows that every rule has exceptions, but we are not talking about the exceptions here, but the rule.

 

[chansen]

I don't entirely agree with the notion that price has nothing to do with quality. I do think that price does not determine quality. However price is driven by quality (among other things), and price is therefore used, in many instances, as an indicator of quality. Far too often people fall into the trap of only looking at the price tag to determine the objects level of quality.

I think this happens most when the individual does not have the experience to know any better. When I bought my $50 'S' curved elm, did I know any better. No. Do I now, absolutely.

The real question is, what is quality? Quality is somewhat subjective, and it changes depending on the individual's level of experience (at least it should). I thought my elm was pretty cool, my inexperienced mind thought that it was decent quality. Therefore, I spent the money. I would never buy that tree again. I don't think I'd even take one for free. My tree time is too valuable to me.

So now, I use my experiences, try to lean on the experience and knowledge of others, make better decisions and invest a little more money in prebonsai stock. That extra money save me some (but not all) development time, and allows me to do things that I find more enjoyable.

 

[Attila Soos]

The real question is, what is quality? Quality is somewhat subjective, and it changes depending on the individual's level of experience

That is indeed the $64,000 question. At the beginning, the novice's notion of quality is widely divergent from one person to another. As the experience grows, the notion of various experienced people on quality start converging. After 20 years of experience, if you take 100 people with the same experience, they will pretty much agree one what is high quality and what is not.

That's why a teacher cannot trust the judgment of a novice on quality. He has to tell the novice what is good and what is bad quality, and the novice just has to accept it. As time goes by, he will understand why. That's the problem with the Internet, where the novices rule the world (as far as numbers are concerned), and they think that their judgment carries equal weight to anyone else.

 

[Anonymous User]

So your example just shows that every rule has exceptions, but we are not talking about the exceptions here, but the rule.

Well if there is a "rule" as you suggest, please help us understand it by definition.

At what price level is one assured of buying quality material?


Will

 

[Bill S]

"At what price level is one assured of buying quality material?"

Common sense is priceless! Not a jab, just that it's not a reachable definition, and people being people the situation will never change. We see all the time justifications for buying crappy stock that don't stack up to a hill of beans, but we must be pc - no we don't - trash has it's place as a training tool, sometime the trash gets turned into a treasure, sometimes.

 

[Attila Soos]

Well if there is a "rule" as you suggest, please help us understand it by definition.

At what price level is one assured of buying quality material?


Will

That's easy to answer.

As a general rule, one cannot buy quality material at ANY price level from a normal plant nursery. At a normal plant nursery, you can find plants from $3 up to $250 (the large landscape trees). But none of them can be considered pre-bonsai. The exception to this is if you are very experienced (this will obviously exclude the novice) and you get very lucky.

The next source is the bonsai nursery. I assume a good quality bonsai nursery, not a place where they try to rip you off. This is the place to buy material, regardless of the price. Here you can buy pre-bonsai at an advance stage,or you can buy material that you can develop into pre-bonsai yourself (if you already have the experience to do such a thing). A novice should not bother with the latter (due to lack of experience, no point in buying "liners"), but should buy material in advances stage of development. For instance, at Chikugo-en, the prices for this kind of material start at around $50. Mind you, that these are tiny trees. A larger tree of same quality starts at around $150.
So you should be prepared to spend $150 for a beginner tree, here in Los Angeles. I am talking about the lower range, of course.

You can also go to some mall and spend $150 on an atrocity of S-curved chinese elm that looks like a Cobra ready to strike. But since you are a novice, you can't tell the difference. Too bad that you didn't listen to your teacher who told you to go to a quality bonsai nursery. You just gave away $150 for nothing.

The operative word is Quality Bonsai Nursery. And have at least 100 bucks with you, or don't bother.

 

[Anonymous User]

"At what price level is one assured of buying quality material?"

Common sense is priceless! Not a jab, just that it's not a reachable definition, and people being people the situation will never change. We see all the time justifications for buying crappy stock that don't stack up to a hill of beans, but we must be pc - no we don't - trash has it's place as a training tool, sometime the trash gets turned into a treasure, sometimes.

Common sense dictates suggesting that a higher price automatically assures quality is foolhardy. Price and quality are not automatically connected, one does not assure the other. You yourself suggest that lessor price means trash, this is simply not true.

Certainly there is excellent stock that is expensive and there is garbage that is inexpensive, but a brief journey to Ebay will show you plenty of trash that is expensive and a trip to some out of the way nurseries, or to the woods, or to urban landscaping will show quality stock that is not expensive.

Price no more assures quality than formal training assures the student produces great bonsai.

The question I asked Attila was rhetorical, I expected no answer because there is no answer. There is no price that assures quality stock, high or low. There is also no price that assures garbage.....I have seen large sums paid for trash and low sums paid for gems...visa versa as well.


A little common sense goes a long ways



Will

 

[Attila Soos]

The question I asked Attila was rhetorical, I expected no answer because there is no answer.

I still gave you an answer in my previous post, based on my experience here in Los Angeles.

 

[Anonymous User]

That's easy to answer.

As a general rule, one cannot buy quality material at ANY price level from a normal plant nursery. At a normal plant nursery, you can find plants from $3 up to $250 (the large landscape trees). But none of them can be considered pre-bonsai. The exception to this is if you are very experienced (this will obviously exclude the novice) and you get very lucky.

Will you admit your error in logic if I link to a number of good bonsai from such places? (Oh, and we were talking about stock, not pre-bonsai, there is a difference)

The next source is the bonsai nursery. I assume a good quality bonsai nursery, not a place where they try to rip you off. This is the place to buy material, regardless of the price. Here you can buy pre-bonsai at an advance stage,or you can buy material that you can develop into pre-bonsai yourself (if you already have the experience to do such a thing). A novice should not bother with the latter (due to lack of experience, no point in buying "liners"), but should buy material in advances stage of development. For instance, at Chikugo-en, the prices for this kind of material start at around $50. Mind you, that these are tiny trees. A larger tree of same quality starts at around $150.
So you should be prepared to spend $150 for a beginner tree, here in Los Angeles. I am talking about the lower range, of course.

Good advice for those living on the west coast, thanks. In Michigan we have less than a half dozen bonsai shops and no nurseries at all. The shops offer poor material at inflated prices, it is easy to find better material at large nurseries (large meaning literally thousands of trees) and far less expensive.) Attila, how many specialty bonsai nurseries are there in the United States? Do you know? But that sways us from the point....

Would you admit that the same or better quality stock as you have at your bonsai nursery can be found elsewhere, such as in nurseries or as collected material?

You can also go to some mall and spend $150 on an atrocity of S-curved chinese elm that looks like a Cobra ready to strike. Too bad that you didn't listen to your teacher who told you to go to a quality bonsai nursery. You just gave away $150 for nothing.

I'm sorry, we were talking about buying quality stock, this statement serves no purpose in the discussion at all.

The operative word is Quality Bonsai Nursery. And have at least 100 bucks with you, or don't bother.

I have to disagree here, the operative words are "QUALITY STOCK" and it really doesn't matter where it is found or what it costs.


Will

 

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by Bill S
Common sense is priceless! Not a jab, just that it's not a reachable definition, and people being people the situation will never change. We see all the time justifications for buying crappy stock that don't stack up to a hill of beans, but we must be pc - no we don't - trash has it's place as a training tool, sometimes the trash gets turned into a treasure, sometimes.


Reread it Will no referance to price - crappy stock yes, otherwise I agree with you and said so. But like I said the crap can have it's place, and I for one have a $5.00 procumbens that is designed as a cascade, and with a few more years will be a respectable bonsai, but it took more than the typical newb would muster I believe. I will agree that the typical crappy stock was bought because it was a cheap deal, and I have seen some expensive crap, it just takes some experiance to recognize it.

I also don't have a problem with training on lesser stock, it is afterall what we recommend when collecting yamadori.

 

[chansen]

That's easy to answer.

As a general rule, one cannot buy quality material at ANY price level from a normal plant nursery. At a normal plant nursery, you can find plants from $3 up to $250 (the large landscape trees). But none of them can be considered pre-bonsai. The exception to this is if you are very experienced (this will obviously exclude the novice) and you get very lucky.

The next source is the bonsai nursery. I assume a good quality bonsai nursery, not a place where they try to rip you off. This is the place to buy material, regardless of the price. Here you can buy pre-bonsai at an advance stage,or you can buy material that you can develop into pre-bonsai yourself (if you already have the experience to do such a thing). A novice should not bother with the latter (due to lack of experience, no point in buying "liners"), but should buy material in advances stage of development. For instance, at Chikugo-en, the prices for this kind of material start at around $50. Mind you, that these are tiny trees. A larger tree of same quality starts at around $150.
So you should be prepared to spend $150 for a beginner tree, here in Los Angeles. I am talking about the lower range, of course.

You can also go to some mall and spend $150 on an atrocity of S-curved chinese elm that looks like a Cobra ready to strike. But since you are a novice, you can't tell the difference. Too bad that you didn't listen to your teacher who told you to go to a quality bonsai nursery. You just gave away $150 for nothing.

The operative word is Quality Bonsai Nursery. And have at least 100 bucks with you, or don't bother.

Interesting numbers. I find that the prices are similar here in Virginia (at least at the one bonsai nursery that is relatively close to me). And, assuming that what we see as a beginner tree is the same, this suggests (but is far from proof) that the bonsai economy is is at equilibrium. I wonder if the prices are driven by the shows, where there are typically multiple educated buyers and sellers from a variety of places across the region?

 

[Attila Soos]

I have to disagree here, the operative words are "QUALITY STOCK" and it really doesn't matter where it is found or what it costs.


Will

It does matter to those who are looking for it. If someone comes to you and asks for advice as to where to get quality stock, you can't just tell her that "it doesn't matter where to find it, just go and find it". And if someone asks you about costs, you need to tell her what to expect to pay in your area. You can't just say "umm...anywhere between $5 and 500". You better give some practical advice to those interested, or you tell them that you cannot help.

When people came to our club, they got all the answers as to places an prices. So they were well prepared for their first escapades into the world of bonsai. And usually they were not disappointed with our advice, and most of all, they were not ripped of by unscrupulous vendors.

 

[Attila Soos]

I wonder if the prices are driven by the shows, where there are typically multiple educated buyers and sellers from a variety of places across the region?

.

That's pretty much the explanation.
Here in Southern California we have vendors coming all the way from Oregon, and even from Washington state. So, when vendors come from overlapping areas, the prices tend to come to an equilibrium. Otherwise, one can do what is called "arbitrage": buys the tree in one area and quickly sell it in a different area for a profit.

 

[Attila Soos]

I'm sorry, we were talking about buying quality stock, this statement serves no purpose in the discussion at all.

Let me be the judge of what purpuse I serve with my post..

 

[Anonymous User]

It does matter to those who are looking for it. If someone comes to you and asks for advice as to where to get quality stock, you can't just tell her that "it doesn't matter where to find it, just go and find it". And if someone asks you about costs, you need to tell her what to expect to pay in your area. You can't just say "umm...anywhere between $5 and 500". You better give some practical advice to those interested, or you tell them that you cannot help.

Practical advice?

Educate, inform, enlighten.

Teach the student what quality stock is, what to look for, don't direct them to a business that honestly has the sole objective of making as many sales at the highest price the market dictates.

The old saying about teaching a man to fish comes to mind here. Teach a person what quality stock is, what to look for and you have given him the tools he needs to acquire quality stock. Tell a man to take a few hundred bucks and go to a bonsai nursery and you teach him nothing and certainly do not assure success.

A couple years back I had the honor of accompanying Vance Wood while he went nursery crawling. He spotted 30 or 40 mugo pines marked down to under 5 bucks each. He showed me how to feel below the soil level, look for the often hidden trunks, and to judge the worth of these pines. Below is one of many I purchased that day.

About 15 of these mugos we picked out that day ended up at a ABS New Talent Competition as material for the entrants.


While there I picked up a few Junipers as well for under 5 bucks.

Are these the 5 dollar trash people like to use as an example?


Speaking of Vance Wood, he most likely is the foremost authority on mugos in America, he has a large collection of bonsai of various species which are well respected and well maintained. His bonsai no doubt are some of the highest quality in Michigan, at master level in the local club, he continually winds best of show....and guess what.....a very large percentage of his bonsai are from traditional nursery stock.


Will

PS

For the record, here is what the mugo above looked like before I cut away the pot and revealed what laid beneath.

 

[Rick Moquin]

How many of you participating in this debate have taken the time to read Peter's interview in it's entirety? I know some have, but I am pretty sure a good number have not.

I pointed that out in my original post, link provided. One cannot take a "snip it" of info and use it for self serving purposes while morphing a comment raised in an interview that deals entirely (as a whole) with something totally different than what is discussed here.

One needs to read and understand Peter's view wrt to bonsai (as a whole) in order to bring "that" comment into perspective. Which so far no one has IMO, with the exception of validating some of his comments which I'll post later. I am enjoying my ringside seat

Ding ding rd6