Inorganic "soil"

[Chris Johnston]

I haven't found our local haydite to have any tendency to break down. However, haydite is actually a term for lightweight aggregate used for pan decks on raised concrete decks (second floor and up). Locally, it's steam-expanded shale. Brussel Martin uses something he calls haydite that is simply a fired clay product. Other things probably serve the same purpose in other areas.

The important thing to know is that each kind of haydite has differing characteristics, with wildly varying cation exchange capacities. To continue the examples, our local haydite is less porous, taking the place of pumice in bonsai soil. Brussel's haydite is more porous, perhaps replacing lava (except that it's more porous than pumice but not porous or jagged enough to replace lava).

As to breaking down, the commonly used akadama product will give you about two good years, at which time you will need to repot with fresh soil. There is a harder version (red stripe) which will last longer.

 

[Vance Wood]

I lumped Haydite in with the actual clay products, like Akadama and Turface, because it occupies the same niche in a soil recipe. It does have a CEC as does lava rock. Cation Exchange Capacity is the ability of a soil component to retain the ions from the fertilization process.

 

[Zappa]

Alright I have my 2 sifters, a bag of Mule Mix (I think it's the same as turface), and pumice. Now im looking for some lava rock for my batch of Boon. The only lava rock that I have been able to find is the large landscaping grade....Is it feasible to by a bag of it, and use a hammer to coax it into more manageable pieces?

 

[Chris Johnston]

Not so much.

 

[grouper52]

Alright I have my 2 sifters, a bag of Mule Mix (I think it's the same as turface), and pumice. Now im looking for some lava rock for my batch of Boon. The only lava rock that I have been able to find is the large landscaping grade....Is it feasible to by a bag of it, and use a hammer to coax it into more manageable pieces?

I believe the word "torture" was recently used on another forum to describe that process.

grouper52

 

[agraham]

Tom(Taichigi) sells the smaller lava.Tn. isn't so far from Va. that shipping would kill you.Email him.

andy

 

[Graydon]

Alright I have my 2 sifters, a bag of Mule Mix (I think it's the same as turface), and pumice. Now im looking for some lava rock for my batch of Boon. The only lava rock that I have been able to find is the large landscaping grade....Is it feasible to by a bag of it, and use a hammer to coax it into more manageable pieces?

For the sake of safety please don't. Smashing anything with a hammer can cause chips to fly out at high speed. One chip in the eye can be permanent damage, or at least a trip to the emergency room for an uncomfortable removal procedure involving dye, bright lights and sharp objects wielded by doctors. I have had objects removed from my eyes on 2 occasions (not lava) and it sucked. Yes - I was wearing safety glasses. Funny how things moving quickly can bounce around. Now I wear goggles and sometimes add a full face shield.

Contact Tom at Shadyside or other online sellers for purchase. It's the proper size, washed of most of the dust and graded to the size we need. And it's cheap, unlike my insurace co pay.

 

[cbobgo]

My teacher back in Chicago uses a mono-mix, only Turface, for his trees. One big plus is the simplicity - no mixing, no storing of multiple ingredients and measuring various ammounts of this and that. I have used 100% turface occasionally as well. It works. You definately have to fertilize alot, and depending on how hot and dry your environment is you may have to water multiple times a day.

My current teacher's mix (Brent's perlite and bark combo) is well known on the internet, and you can read alot about it on his site. It has it's plusses as well. The biggest plus comes when repotting. Because all the ingredients are light, it is very easy to completely wash out a rootball with a strong hose. Often times a root hook or chopstick is not even needed. And the growth rates are just as big as any i've seen in the inorganic mixes.

Basically, you have to experiment with different ingredients and figure out what works in your environment, with your trees, and your own watering habits. No single mix will work for everyone everywhere.

- bob

 

[Rick Moquin]

For the sake of safety please don't. Smashing anything with a hammer can cause chips to fly out at high speed. One chip in the eye can be permanent damage, or at least a trip to the emergency room for an uncomfortable removal procedure involving dye, bright lights and sharp objects wielded by doctors.

... a piece of vapour barrier will illiminate this problem.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I have used 100% turface occasionally as well. It works. You definately have to fertilize alot, and depending on how hot and dry your environment is you may have to water multiple times a day.
- bob

....may I take a moment from everyones attention to this thread, although inorganics work well, the debate of this particular thread was location. The proof is in the pudding, I will however conceide that an increased feeding regimen is indoubtidly required for a totally inorganic mix. However, what is the cost comparison of the two?

 

[Rick Moquin]

There is no magic soil recipe, inorganic or otherwise. It is what works for you, under your present climate and growing conditions. The only advantage in my experience of a totally inorganic medium is that yot can not over water it!!

 

[Tachigi]

There is no magic soil recipe, inorganic or otherwise.

Rick,
I think everyone is in agreement on this. In my opinion people relate what they are doing to achieve a soil that maximizes the trees potential. This being a key ingredient for the tree and for us as caretakers since our time is finite. Some soils and components do this, some don't. We are in a race that requires us to go slow, a oxymoron if I ever heard one. So we search while we wait for something that will enhance our time as custodians.

 

[Graydon]

....may I take a moment from everyones attention to this thread, although inorganics work well, the debate of this particular thread was location. The proof is in the pudding, I will however conceide that am increased feeding regimen is indoubtidly required for a totally inorganic mix. However, what is the cost comparison of the two?

Nice work Rick. I'll need to read it again to digest everything. Thanks for sharing a link I would have never found.

 

[Dale Cochoy]

Chris,
I've used Haydite for about 25 years now I guess. I first saw it and started using it after buying some from Tony Mihalic at WildwoodGardens in Chardon, Ohio. I think he is the FIRST person I ever saw use it. My teacher,Keith Scott, started using it and we both still do. He pretty much replaced Turface with haydite in his old mix because....well, it was MUCH cheaper to get by the truckload!
I get it, lets say, REAL cheap because it's made about an hour from here. One of the 27 places around the world it is made.
It is fired to 2,000 degrees F. in long rotating kilns and then graded into a bout 5 sizes.
The best for MOST bonsai is size "H" and for bigger trees size "B". They make a size under "H" which I think is too fine and sizes go up to about softball size. You can get it in little bags for bonsai ( Some zealous salesman leaped onto that after he kept getting calls from bonsai people for it after the secret got out as to where it came from) and big supper sacks or huge truckloads. I think you could even get a train car full if you want it!
I did have some pics of the kilns I took while geting some up there but I can't seem to find them now.
I have NEVER seen it break down in Ohio winters where Japanese soils quickly become a root rot-enhancing mush!.
D.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I nearly broke the springs on my old 69 Ford 1/2 ton when I went to get a loader scoop of haydite. It's made about an hour from my home in New Market, MO. The guy in the loader (must have been a 3/4 yard scoop or larger) raised it as high as he could. I guess he needed to see the truck, or he was just being an ass. I got a quarter mile down the road and realized the load was all the way at the back and I could barely steer the truck! Fortunately I had a shovel and was able to redistribute the load.

Small lava is harder to get around here locally but it can be had. I still have a lot of medium sized akadama and kanuma I am trying to get rid of because the local club wouldn't buy any. But I can get about a half bag of small from a bag of medium akadama. And the alpine trees like the big stuff anyway.

And you are right, expanded shale does not break down.

 

[Smoke]

And you are right, expanded shale does not break down.

Ironic that one of the best mediums for bonsai is hard mud....

 

[grouper52]

....may I take a moment from everyones attention to this thread, although inorganics work well, the debate of this particular thread was location. The proof is in the pudding, I will however conceide that am increased feeding regimen is indoubtidly required for a totally inorganic mix. However, what is the cost comparison of the two?

Rick!

I always wondered what the results of that experiment were! How fondly I recall that old thread that I believe sparked your experimental design, and how surprised I am by the contrasting civility of the soil discussion here - I didn't know a calm and civil soil thread was possible! Anyway, thanks for the link - great work!

grouper52

 

[Rick Moquin]

Rick!

I always wondered what the results of that experiment were! How fondly I recall that old thread that I believe sparked your experimental design, and how surprised I am by the contrasting civility of the soil discussion here - I didn't know a calm and civil soil thread was possible! Anyway, thanks for the link - great work!

grouper52

Now you know Will. I believe the civility lies with the participing members, which in this case everyone knows what is required for a good growing medium. Folks have suited it to their individual environment based allot on component availability, which I believe is a, if not the prime consideration when mixing up growing mediums.

I like the way Tom finished off his reply, I had a good chuckle on that one, well said.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I do appreciate this thread, a lot of good objective information in it. I, of course, am a big proponent of Boon's soil mix. We discussed it in our ongoing conversation here.

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