Is America Occupied Territory?

dbonsaiw said:
Professor in Middle East studies, huh? Surely he is aware of these facts.
Click to expand...

My father died of MS ten years ago. Now, you are talking shit about my father after I’ve made it abundantly clear that I’m not *really* interested in continuing this “discourse” with you.

You can talk all the other shit you want but, drag my dead father into it and you’re asking for a whole *other* series of “problems”.

Leave it alone. Don’t poke a bear. That isn’t hyperbole or a joke.

Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum
 
TerminalMoraine said:
Leave it alone. Don’t poke a bear. That isn’t hyperbole or a joke.
Click to expand...
LOL. I’m from Brooklyn too tough guy. And you brought up your dead dad, history professor and all. Not my fault you’re a dumb ass. As for threats, go play with your trees.
 
dbonsaiw said:
LOL. I’m from Brooklyn too tough guy. And you brought up your dead dad, history professor and all. Not my fault you’re a dumb ass. As for threats, go play with your trees.
Click to expand...

Oh word? That’s just so good to know.

See you around.
 
Last edited:
Desert O'Piñon said:
Human history. That's the topic of this thread. Peoples have been conquering other peoples for our entire history.
Click to expand...
It's like the UK. People living there since pre-history. Then Romans came in and conquered most of it. Then Saxons conquered it after the Romans pulled out. Then Normans conquered the Saxons. Etc. So who does it belong to? Anyone?

It is next to impossible to judge the actions of a people in 1600 versus the actions of people today. We respond with shock and sadness to events today that would be considered normal for the times back then. And for what it's worth, the vast majority of people living in the US today did not have ancestors who lived here at the time of the Civil War - let alone in the 1600's.
 
Bonsai Nut said:
It's like the UK. People living there since pre-history. Then Romans came in and conquered most of it. Then Saxons conquered it after the Romans pulled out. Then Normans conquered the Saxons. Etc. So who does it belong to? Anyone?

It is next to impossible to judge the actions of a people in 1600 versus the actions of people today. We respond with shock and sadness to events today that would be considered normal for the times back then. And for what it's worth, the vast majority of people living in the US today did not have ancestors who lived here at the time of the Civil War - let alone in the 1600's.
Click to expand...

Just because savagery was (and is) normal throughout history is not an excuse. Y’all want to continue to live like actual savages? Cool. Go play amongst yourselves and let the rest of us live.

The Royal Family “owns” the UK. That’s a whole other bag of cobras but, by your logic: might makes right.

So, if I possessed a military with 13 carrier strike groups, I can just roll up the Thames and proclaim myself to be the new owner? Cool.

What about all the people there?

Fuck em’. They should’ve brought bigger guns. I’ll just tac-nuke them until people stop complaining.

The futures looking so bright I gotta get my shades….
 
TerminalMoraine said:
Just because savagery was (and is) normal throughout history is not an excuse.
Click to expand...
I'm not excusing anything. It is happening today in real time - just ask the Ukrainians. There is a reason why Finland just joined NATO and it isn't because they aren't enlightened people who just want to be left alone in their own country.

However my post was directed at the OP who started the thread... and your response has left me wondering whether we are talking about the same subject.
 
Bonsai Nut said:
I'm not excusing anything. It is happening today in real time - just ask the Ukrainians. There is a reason why Finland just joined NATO and it isn't because they aren't enlightened people who just want to be left alone in their own country.

However my post was directed at the OP who started the thread... and your response has left me wondering whether we are talking about the same subject.
Click to expand...

Failing to see the relation between continuing the cycle of brutality and world wide strife as the chess pieces slide into place for something truly awful leads me to believe you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Whatever. Do you.
 
Bonsai Nut said:
It's like the UK. People living there since pre-history. Then Romans came in and conquered most of it. Then Saxons conquered it after the Romans pulled out. Then Normans conquered the Saxons. Etc. So who does it belong to? Anyone?

It is next to impossible to judge the actions of a people in 1600 versus the actions of people today. We respond with shock and sadness to events today that would be considered normal for the times back then. And for what it's worth, the vast majority of people living in the US today did not have ancestors who lived here at the time of the Civil War - let alone in the 1600's.
Click to expand...
I think I agree with your sentiment. Mankind has made progress in a lot of ways. War is uncommon compared to just a few centuries ago. We've already covered slavery. There are powerful nations (not just United States) who intervene against genocide. The average life expectancy has increased because of advances in technology and information.

I don't know exactly when my ancestors arrived here, and that's honestly not very important to me. But I know it was in the last half of the 19th century. We started on the east coast, and migrated to the middle of the country before 1900. My family had nothing to do with slavery in the US. Do I take pride in that? No. It's a simple fact, and a great talking point, but it has no bearing on my life. It doesn't affect who I am. Would I be proud or ashamed if my ancestors owned slaves, or had been slaves? Neither one, for the same reason. I don't brag that my great, great, etc grandfather developed a horse breed in Colorado especially for range riding and cattle working? Okay, maybe occasionally, cause I love horses. But I don't take credit or blame for things my ancestors did.
More recently, I am proud that my grandfather was shot down by Japan in the Pacific fighting to rid the world of dangerous ideologies. That he came home, raised a family with the same woman and ran a farm for 60 years. He was born in a dirt floor shack. He started with nothing and eventually grew his humble farm into over 2,000 acres. His is a bootstrap story, and I'm proud to be a small part of his legacy.
I too, started out with nothing. (And I still have all of it.) But seriously, I'm not entitled to anything I haven't worked for. I don't ask anyone for handouts. I have received help, even from government assistance, but briefly, to get back on track. It's not a matter of pride, more a matter of duty and honor, and a love and appreciation for this country and her people.

I think there are two types of entitled attitudes.
1. "I come from money and I have stuff, so I deserve to be respected for what I inherited."
2. "I have nothing, so I'm entitled to what other people have."

One is no better than the other. Although I give respect at first meeting, one can lose or increase that respect instantaneously. No one is "entitled" to respect. I strongly believe that we are only entitled to those things that we earn.
 
TerminalMoraine said:
Failing to see the relation between continuing the cycle of brutality and world wide strife as the chess pieces slide into place for something truly awful leads me to believe you’re being deliberately obtuse.

Whatever. Do you.
Click to expand...
I actually get your angle. You're convinced that you're right. And to prove how right you are, you twist up the words and change meanings in order to make others sound wrong. In reality, we're not that far off in this conversation in some ways. We're all against war. It's just that some people who are against war also believe it to be absolutely necessary as a last resort for peace, freedom and sovereignty. War is brutal. It is ugly. It conquers and murders, or it liberates and ends suffering. You said yourself (and seemed proud) that your grandfather bombed a sociopath (and those who were brainwashed into following him) who was apparently charismatic and great at getting people to "buy in" to his delusions. Dude! We're on the same side! What is this hate you have for people who don't think the same way you do? I promise you that you will find more peace in your life if you can be okay with everyone thinking for themselves instead of all of us thinking the same way about everything. Don't you see that is exactly how that German guy swayed an entire nation...
...and beyond? He got everyone to think the same. Just something to consider. I can love you as a neighbor, and pray for you to find peace, but ultimately, most of that is on your own shoulders.
 
Bonsai Nut said:
So who does it belong to? Anyone?
Click to expand...
Not sure anyone owns the land. Isn’t it ultimately a question of sovereignty (on a national level) and then contractual rights recognized by the sovereign power (on an individual level)? Sovereignty, and to a large extent maintaining sovereignty, is driven by conflict. Might ultimately makes right, but at least in theory we try to maintain a world order in which this attribute isn’t expressed.
 
Perhaps sovereignty is a better way to discuss the Israel/palestine issue. We should all be able to agree that during the time of the British Palestinian mandate, neither Jews nor Arabs had sovereign control over this area. Both lived there, neither were sovereign. Jordan became a sovereign nation when the British cut off 2/3 of the Palestinian mandate and formed Jordan with it. Jews last had sovereignty over the land about 2,000 years ago. Palestinians never had sovereignty over anything. In fact, they didn’t exist as an Arab national identity until 1967.

The reason that Palestinians still do not have any sovereignty is because they have rejected it time and again. They are not interested in sovereignty (or nation building altogether) - their goal is the destruction of Israeli sovereignty. In fact, yasser Arafat was offered 99% of what he was requesting and rejected it. I do not know how to deal with a terrorist death cult that wants nothing but my death and destruction, and will bring unbelievable death and destruction upon themselves to get there. The only parallels I can think of are Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany - threats addressed by 2 atomic bombs and the destruction of Dresden, respectively.

So let’s please (please) be honest that the Palestinian narrative is predicated upon lies. No one took anything from them. They had no sovereignty to take. They turned the narrative on its head. In reality, the world was trying to give them sovereignty, not take anything away from them. But they don’t want it. Guess what? Without sovereignty there can be no “occupation” under international law. So Israel doesn’t occupy anything. I didn’t solve any of the issues, I’m just trying to describe them accurately.

As for “cycles of violence” I find that term funny and, at times, disingenuous. If Hamas surrendered and released the hostages the violence would end. (With a ceasefire, the violence will continue once Hamas rearms). So it’s easy to end the cycle of violence. But I believe some use this term but really express nothing but a call to violence. For example, why should Hamas surrender when Israel is “occupying” bla bla. I feel ya. I disagree, but I feel ya. In any event, that comment is encouraging violence unless Israel surrenders and is in fact creating this thing referred to as the “cycle of violence”. Let’s not bemoan cycles of violence while actively encouraging them. People want Israel to disappear. So just say so and fight it out. Stop butchering the English language.

But let’s assume I’m not just wrong about Israel on every single count, but I’m also stupid. Since when do we as Americans (or westerners) discriminate, assault and intimidate against those assumed to be affiliated in any way with a foreign regime/government we despise? For example, I think most of us despise Putin. I know a good deal of Russian Americans. Why would anyone harass a Russian American because of Putin and Russia? How about Americans with Chinese decent? I have Syrian American acquaintances- should we gas them in retaliation for assads actions? Surely the answer is a resounding no. So why are me and mine being treated this way in the U.S.? And in an Orwellian inversion of reality, the left tells me this is just and fair. (Really unsure why anyone would expect me to be quietly be sacrificed on the altar of their false progressive gods).

The most disappointing to me have been the so-called progressives. If we harass a black man because of black crime statistics, I am fairly certain that would qualify as racist. But the blue haired barista will accost me when I’m walking with my son who is wearing a yarmulka because they (use the correct pronoun please) learned words like “occupier” and “baby killer”. Did it dawn on them that my son never killed anyone? Or how about that they are defending people who literally stole the Bibas children and their mother from bed and killed them with their bare hands? Did it ever dawn on them what radical Islam does to folks like them?

It’s just blind hatred (and a really heathy dose of stupid). We need to address that as a society. Whatever you may think about Israel or Russia or even North Korea, as human beings we need to firmly acknowledge that rape is not resistance. Dont spew back a line in retort that starts with “but Israel …..”. No, rape is not resistance. Say it out loud. Torturing and killing children in front of their parents isn’t resistance. Taking hostages is not resistance. These are actually war crimes. Real, not imagined ones. You don’t forfeit your queerness or progressiveness if you recognize basic notions of humanity.
 
dbonsaiw said:
Perhaps sovereignty is a better way to discuss the Israel/palestine issue. We should all be able to agree that during the time of the British Palestinian mandate, neither Jews nor Arabs had sovereign control over this area. Both lived there, neither were sovereign. Jordan became a sovereign nation when the British cut off 2/3 of the Palestinian mandate and formed Jordan with it. Jews last had sovereignty over the land about 2,000 years ago. Palestinians never had sovereignty over anything. In fact, they didn’t exist as an Arab national identity until 1967.

The reason that Palestinians still do not have any sovereignty is because they have rejected it time and again. They are not interested in sovereignty (or nation building altogether) - their goal is the destruction of Israeli sovereignty. In fact, yasser Arafat was offered 99% of what he was requesting and rejected it. I do not know how to deal with a terrorist death cult that wants nothing but my death and destruction, and will bring unbelievable death and destruction upon themselves to get there. The only parallels I can think of are Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany - threats addressed by 2 atomic bombs and the destruction of Dresden, respectively.

So let’s please (please) be honest that the Palestinian narrative is predicated upon lies. No one took anything from them. They had no sovereignty to take. They turned the narrative on its head. In reality, the world was trying to give them sovereignty, not take anything away from them. But they don’t want it. Guess what? Without sovereignty there can be no “occupation” under international law. So Israel doesn’t occupy anything. I didn’t solve any of the issues, I’m just trying to describe them accurately.

As for “cycles of violence” I find that term funny and, at times, disingenuous. If Hamas surrendered and released the hostages the violence would end. (With a ceasefire, the violence will continue once Hamas rearms). So it’s easy to end the cycle of violence. But I believe some use this term but really express nothing but a call to violence. For example, why should Hamas surrender when Israel is “occupying” bla bla. I feel ya. I disagree, but I feel ya. In any event, that comment is encouraging violence unless Israel surrenders and is in fact creating this thing referred to as the “cycle of violence”. Let’s not bemoan cycles of violence while actively encouraging them. People want Israel to disappear. So just say so and fight it out. Stop butchering the English language.

But let’s assume I’m not just wrong about Israel on every single count, but I’m also stupid. Since when do we as Americans (or westerners) discriminate, assault and intimidate against those assumed to be affiliated in any way with a foreign regime/government we despise? For example, I think most of us despise Putin. I know a good deal of Russian Americans. Why would anyone harass a Russian American because of Putin and Russia? How about Americans with Chinese decent? I have Syrian American acquaintances- should we gas them in retaliation for assads actions? Surely the answer is a resounding no. So why are me and mine being treated this way in the U.S.? And in an Orwellian inversion of reality, the left tells me this is just and fair. (Really unsure why anyone would expect me to be quietly be sacrificed on the altar of their false progressive gods).

The most disappointing to me have been the so-called progressives. If we harass a black man because of black crime statistics, I am fairly certain that would qualify as racist. But the blue haired barista will accost me when I’m walking with my son who is wearing a yarmulka because they (use the correct pronoun please) learned words like “occupier” and “baby killer”. Did it dawn on them that my son never killed anyone? Or how about that they are defending people who literally stole the Bibas children and their mother from bed and killed them with their bare hands? Did it ever dawn on them what radical Islam does to folks like them?

It’s just blind hatred (and a really heathy dose of stupid). We need to address that as a society. Whatever you may think about Israel or Russia or even North Korea, as human beings we need to firmly acknowledge that rape is not resistance. Dont spew back a line in retort that starts with “but Israel …..”. No, rape is not resistance. Say it out loud. Torturing and killing children in front of their parents isn’t resistance. Taking hostages is not resistance. These are actually war crimes. Real, not imagined ones. You don’t forfeit your queerness or progressiveness if you recognize basic notions of humanity.
Click to expand...

As someone living in NYC do you ever feel conflicted over the fact that we live in a city where Mossad and “elements” of the US government (see: CIA, Cheney, Daddy Bush, etc) allowed planes to crash into skyscrapers?

Personally, I’ve never had faith in our government. No existing political party represents my interests. So, fuck them.

But, seriously… as someone who watched those towers fall in real life, and was there for the ensuing chaos, I’ve always found it curious how many Israelis were spotted “celebrating” that day.

Why were Israeli art students visiting unlisted government offices trying to sell shitty art while drawing maps and trying to access secure areas?

Why did they live a block away from where the high jackers were staying while getting flight training in Florida?

Me? I think this government is abhorrent and monstrous.

But, I assume you’ll continue to lick the boot and toe the line as your deluded loyalty pulls you through a trench of shit by your nostrils.

It’s uncomfortable, I know. How did you manage to come to terms with it?
 
TerminalMoraine said:
As someone living in NYC do you ever feel conflicted over the fact that we live in a city where Mossad and “elements” of the US government (see: CIA, Cheney, Daddy Bush, etc) allowed planes to crash into skyscrapers?
Click to expand...
Ancient alien astronaut theorists say yes.
 
TerminalMoraine said:
It’s uncomfortable, I know. How did you manage to come to terms with it?
Click to expand...
Music helps get me through. I even found one with English subtitles so folks can better understand the mood of the room from my vantage point.

 
dbonsaiw said:
Music helps get me through. I even found one with English subtitles so folks can better understand the mood of the room from my vantage point.

Click to expand...
This is what the kids call “cringe”.

Objectively speaking; that’s such a bad attempt at “rapping” that I couldn’t handle the auditory trash for more than a minute and a half.

Like, c’mon you toy. You’re supposed to be from Brooklyn? How are you gonna come with such remedial bullshit? I can’t stress the eye rolling boredom of that video. Hahahaha.

Jesus Christ, you’d think with the amount of funding goes to the IDF and Mossad, they’d be able to produce something less corny but, I guess they share in your lack of self awareness.

I had to try and get watch it again because it’s so hilariously bad. Get a fucking life you cornball.
 
Israel is the greatest example of decolonization. Take the tin-foil hat off, stop with the “mossad” bla bla and Come to Israel habibi.

I’d you’re looking for Palestine, you go down wakanda and make a left on Atlantis. Go all the way down Atlantis and it’s right there.

Here’s a history lesson for the Uninformed...

1)Before the modern state of Israel there was the British mandate, Not a Palestinian state .

2) Before the British mandate there was the ottoman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

3) Before the ottoman empire there was the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt, Not a Palestinian state .

4)Before the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt there was the ayyubid dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .Godfrey of bouillon conquered it in 1099.

5) Before the ayyubid dynasty there was the christian kingdom of Jerusalem, Not a Palestinian state .

6) Before the christian kingdom of Jerusalem there was the Fatimid caliphate, Not a Palestinian state .

7) Before the Fatimid caliphate there was the byzantine empire, Not a Palestinian state.

8.) Before the byzantine empire there was the Roman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

9) Before the Roman empire there was the hasmonean dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .

10)Before the hasmonean dynasty there was the Seleucid empire,Not a Palestinian state .

11) Before the Seleucid empire there was the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon, Not a Palestinian state .

12) Before the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon there was the Persian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

13) Before the Persian empire there was the Babylonian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

14) Before the Babylonian empire there was the kingdoms of Israel and Judea, Not a Palestinian state .

15) Before the kingdoms of Israel and Judea there was the kingdom of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

16) Before the kingdom of Israel there was the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

17) Before the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel there was the individual state of Canaan, Not a Palestinian state .

In fact in this corner of the earth there was everything but a Palestinian state.
 
dbonsaiw said:
Israel is the greatest example of decolonization. Take the tin-foil hat off, stop with the “mossad” bla bla and Come to Israel habibi.

I’d you’re looking for Palestine, you go down wakanda and make a left on Atlantis. Go all the way down Atlantis and it’s right there.

Here’s a history lesson for the Uninformed...

1)Before the modern state of Israel there was the British mandate, Not a Palestinian state .

2) Before the British mandate there was the ottoman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

3) Before the ottoman empire there was the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt, Not a Palestinian state .

4)Before the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt there was the ayyubid dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .Godfrey of bouillon conquered it in 1099.

5) Before the ayyubid dynasty there was the christian kingdom of Jerusalem, Not a Palestinian state .

6) Before the christian kingdom of Jerusalem there was the Fatimid caliphate, Not a Palestinian state .

7) Before the Fatimid caliphate there was the byzantine empire, Not a Palestinian state.

8.) Before the byzantine empire there was the Roman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

9) Before the Roman empire there was the hasmonean dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .

10)Before the hasmonean dynasty there was the Seleucid empire,Not a Palestinian state .

11) Before the Seleucid empire there was the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon, Not a Palestinian state .

12) Before the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon there was the Persian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

13) Before the Persian empire there was the Babylonian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

14) Before the Babylonian empire there was the kingdoms of Israel and Judea, Not a Palestinian state .

15) Before the kingdoms of Israel and Judea there was the kingdom of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

16) Before the kingdom of Israel there was the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

17) Before the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel there was the individual state of Canaan, Not a Palestinian state .

In fact in this corner of the earth there was everything but a Palestinian state.
Click to expand...
I didn’t bother reading this because it’s definitely more of the same propaganda and you’re failing to address the *real* issue at hand:

How you going to try and claim NY when you consider *that* garbage to be “hip hop”. Go move to Ohio with that corny shit. We don’t need people with awful taste like that.

You seem like the kinda dude that would go to Yankees stadium decked out in full Red Sox gear, talk shit about the Yankees, and then be surprised at the results.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom