Is bacterial activity overlooked in our hobby?

[Sixty’s]

Being such an important organism to sustain life I often think if it’s something that I I’m overlooking in the care of my trees.

One of the reasons I often look at the subject is mainly by being one of the largest differences between growing a tree in a pot and growing a tree in the ground, the bacterial activity in the ground will be much more diverse and with a full cycle vs the bacteria that will be present in a pot with limited nutrients and a incomplete nitrogen cycle.
Bacillus for example cannot multiply without the presence of organic carbon, this nutrient is excluded from traditional fertilisers. Therefore the heterotrophic bacterial diversity in inorganic soil may be much lower in comparison.
Nitrifying bacteria cannot work without the presence of ammonium usually formed by decaying organic matter, therefore I believe that the nitrogen cycle could be limited in inorganic soils etc…

I believe my main question is: could some trees benefit from a full microbial cycle and this being one of the big differences between growing a tree in the ground Vs in a pot with just inorganic soil and inorganic nutrients?

 

[leatherback]

Being such an important organism to sustain life I often think if it’s something that I I’m overlooking in the care of my trees.

One of the reasons I often look at the subject is mainly by being one of the largest differences between growing a tree in a pot and growing a tree in the ground, the bacterial activity in the ground will be much more diverse and with a full cycle vs the bacteria that will be present in a pot with limited nutrients and a incomplete nitrogen cycle.
Bacillus for example cannot multiply without the presence of organic carbon, this nutrient is excluded from traditional fertilisers. Therefore the heterotrophic bacterial diversity in inorganic soil may be much lower in comparison.
Nitrifying bacteria cannot work without the presence of ammonium usually formed by decaying organic matter, therefore I believe that the nitrogen cycle could be limited in inorganic soils etc…

I believe my main question is: could some trees benefit from a full microbial cycle and this being one of the big differences between growing a tree in the ground Vs in a pot with just inorganic soil and inorganic nutrients?

I typically include organic matter in my pots, in part because of biological diversity.
Next to this, I normally do not use sterile substrate, but re-use and expand old substrate with new.

 

[Gabler]

That's an interesting question. Most of the focus is on beneficial fungus, not bacteria. I'm eager to hear what everyone has to say.

 

[Sixty’s]

That's an interesting question. Most of the focus is on beneficial fungus, not bacteria. I'm eager to hear what everyone has to say.

It seems that the relationship that some trees form with fungi is fairly talked about although not all trees can form that relationship ex. Maples this said I’m aware that many do create a similar symbiotic relationship with heterotrophic bacteria were sugars (organic carbon) is traded for nutrients.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Yes you are right, bacteria make organic acids as they feed on sugars exuded from the roots,

These acids lower PH so at the roots PH can be 2 points lower than surrounding soil which improves uptake of iron, copper, manganese and zinc.

Bacillus subtilis gb03 actually makes one of the best chelators of iron in nature! iron is a vital catalyst of chlorophyll production so more iron literally means more photosynthesis.

Its all a big cycle, more photosynthesis, more sugars, more sugar leaves the roots, more bacteria, more uptake and so on,

For as long as plants have evolved, micro organisms have evolved along side them, not just to survive but to thrive in a symbiotic relationship.

Bacteria also works symbiotically with the micorhizae in our soil, it 'rides' the fungus to places it would be unable to reach on its own, and then travels to take nutrients from places the fungus would be unable to access and feeds them back to the plant via the fungus!

There are bacteria blends available to help with flowering, protect from diseases such as powdery mildew, to unlock specific nutrients such as phosphorous (which locks up easily and is a bit cause of pollution), nitrogen fixing, releasing hormones such as IAA rooting hormone, releasing cytokinin or auxin

All right at the root zone. Some commercial growers utilise micro organisms for a number of purposes but it is rarely discussed in bonsai to my knowledge.

I find it fascinating and I am experimenting this year with some mixes.

 

[shohin_branches]

It seems that the relationship that some trees form with fungi is fairly talked about although not all trees can form that relationship ex. Maples

Maples do form relationships with beneficial mycorrhizae. Here's some information about sugar maples specifically http://botany.thismia.com/2010/03/23/mycorrizae-and-sugar-maple/

I think the important thing to understand (like with most things in bonsai) is what are you trying to accomplish. If you want to utilize organic fertilizer in your bonsai pot you'll need microbial activity in your soil to mineralize that organic fertilizer because plants cannot take up nutrients that are still bound to carbon. The presence of carbon is what makes something organic. If you're using mineralized fertilizers then maybe the soil microbes aren't as important to you. Maybe you want to keep the mycelium healthy or want to keep urea levels low because you have a sensitive plant that often gets leaf burn.

Something that is gaining popularity in gardening is harvesting IMO1 (Indigenous MicroOrganisms) and there are many techniques for incorporating that into your vegetable gardens. Here's a video on how to prep your IMO1 culture. If you don't want to watch a video here's a more text based resource on IMO1 but then the next step is IMO2 which is fermenting and making it more stable so you can refrigerate it until you need it.

Here is some more information about KNF (Korean Natural Farming) from the Poor Proles Almanac if you're interested. I like these guys because they are interested in evidence-based solutions.

I have wanted to spend more time trying this out myself, but I currently haven't had the time. I see this as something that could easily find it's way into bonsai horticulture as it gains popularity and people get more experience utilizing it and more studies come out about it.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I take care of my bacteria.
Got a bottle of molasses, kelp, and I've mixed a bunch of probio carbon products with homemade charcoal.

 

[Sixty’s]

Yes you are right, bacteria make organic acids as they feed on sugars exuded from the roots,

These acids lower PH so at the roots PH can be 2 points lower than surrounding soil which improves uptake of iron, copper, manganese and zinc.

Bacillus subtilis gb03 actually makes one of the best chelators of iron in nature! iron is a vital catalyst of chlorophyll production so more iron literally means more photosynthesis.

Its all a big cycle, more photosynthesis, more sugars, more sugar leaves the roots, more bacteria, more uptake and so on,

For as long as plants have evolved, micro organisms have evolved along side them, not just to survive but to thrive in a symbiotic relationship.

Bacteria also works symbiotically with the micorhizae in our soil, it 'rides' the fungus to places it would be unable to reach on its own, and then travels to take nutrients from places the fungus would be unable to access and feeds them back to the plant via the fungus!

There are bacteria blends available to help with flowering, protect from diseases such as powdery mildew, to unlock specific nutrients such as phosphorous (which locks up easily and is a bit cause of pollution), nitrogen fixing, releasing hormones such as IAA rooting hormone, releasing cytokinin or auxin

All right at the root zone. Some commercial growers utilise micro organisms for a number of purposes but it is rarely discussed in bonsai to my knowledge.

I find it fascinating and I am experimenting this year with some mixes.

It’s a fascinating and head banging subject at the same time, what are the two products you have shared not seen them before? Are they nutrients

 

[Sixty’s]

I think the important thing to understand (like with most things in bonsai) is what are you trying to accomplish. If you want to utilize organic fertilizer in your bonsai pot you'll need microbial activity in your soil to mineralize that organic fertilizer because plants cannot take up nutrients that are still bound to carbon. The presence of carbon is what makes something organic. If you're using mineralized fertilizers then maybe the soil microbes aren't as important to you. Maybe you want to keep the mycelium healthy or want to keep urea levels low because you have a sensitive plant that often gets leaf burn.

At the moment just a discussion, trees do grow more vigorously in the ground although I can’t find the specific reason to why.
The difference in bacterial activity could be one although increasing bacterial activity in our smaller pots could affect dissolved oxygen also.
Adding organic nutrients to complete the cycle is something I’ve been pondering for a wile as bacteria is fairly effective in transforming organic nutrients into inorganic nutrient and vice versa, bacteria is also fairly effective at keeping the nutrients in the soil for longer periods of time in relation to just add organic nutrients that can be washed away fairly easily by regular watering regimes during warm wether conditions, Warmer conditions will affect the dissolved oxygen available to plants and bacteria, is there effective ways to increased dissolved oxygen during warmer temperatures periods?

 

[Sixty’s]

I take care of my bacteria.
Got a bottle of molasses, kelp, and I've mixed a bunch of probio carbon products with homemade charcoal.

I have been experimenting with similar products, long chain polymers as I understand that are mainly broken down by beneficial bacteria, I’ve recently been considering that with more aerobic bacteria activity in such a small pot would I require to increase the availability of oxygen also.

 

[Sixty’s]

It’s common knowledge that air pots usually are the second best option to thicken trees, are they better due to the roots being air pruned or by the increase surface area exposed to air that will aid gas exchange and increase the availability of oxygen to the roots and beneficial bacteria? thinking of it most bonsai pots seem to be designed in a way that benefits gas exchange having several oversized drains in a area that will will form cool air allowing it to rise through the pot, thinking further most of the plants that had the best growth last season were planted in pots that had good airflow trough out the pots.

Pondering if adding a air pump to the pot would make a difference to gas exchange and in increase the availability of BOD that could benefit tree and beneficial bacteria.

 

[leatherback]

It’s common knowledge that air pots usually are the second best option to thicken trees

really?
I do not have this experience.

 

[RoadManDenDron]

what are the two products you have shared not seen them before? Are they nutrients

They are from the states RAW NPK brand, they contain beneficial bacteria and funghi, no actual NPK nutes but they help the plant access nutrients in the soil as well as releasing enzymes and amino acids to trigger signals within the plant, I am also using tech grade amino acids and enzymes separately.

 

[GGB]

Of course bacteria is important, if you are fostering fungi then you should also be growing good bacteria. BUT I think it's important to remember that soils high in bacteria are generally devoid of trees and fungi. As soil "improves" bacteria is replaced largely by fungi. I assume that's why we focus more on fungi, but all my inoculants do include a little bacteria too. I'm sure we will learn tons about the role of soil bacteria in our lifetime, in fact maybe it's already published... but as I have heard, the above is true. Someone correct me if not

 

[penumbra]

Of course bacteria is important, if you are fostering fungi then you should also be growing good bacteria. BUT I think it's important to remember that soils high in bacteria are generally devoid of trees and fungi. As soil "improves" bacteria is replaced largely by fungi. I assume that's why we focus more on fungi, but all my inoculants do include a little bacteria too. I'm sure we will learn tons about the role of soil bacteria in our lifetime, in fact maybe it's already published... but as I have heard, the above is true. Someone correct me if not

I concur. This has come up i my research as well. Bacteria thrives in an alkaline environment, fungi acid.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have been experimenting with similar products, long chain polymers as I understand that are mainly broken down by beneficial bacteria, I’ve recently been considering that with more aerobic bacteria activity in such a small pot would I require to increase the availability of oxygen also.

If bacterial growth is faster than your soil can exchange air, then the problem isn't the lack of air but the bacterial growth.

First and foremost we're growing plants. Those plants are helped by fungi and bacteria. In some cases I love boosting fungal growth. But bacterial growth? I make sure they're alive and healthy, that's all. I don't want them to multiply too much, because they excrete a lot of acidic compounds and will cause destabilization of the whole microbiome in the soil if they get the upper hard. Fungi on the other hand are way less damaging.

 

[SgtPilko]

I don't know a hell of a lot about the science myself, but have started using some products just recently this season - lets see! I started with the 'remedial' type of inoculant to help improve a sickly Sabina. In the UK and Ireland 'Danú' 'Maru' and related products inc biochar sold by Harry Harrington and Peter Warren are the famous ones. The liquids tend to need to be refrigerated and have a short shelflife. The founder/academic has been on the Mirai podcast, and there have been a few other discussions. Here is Peter Warren (I haven't actually watched this yet, looks long and slow )

Danú Probiotic innoculant for bonsai - Live Stream with Peter Warren

Following on from the last stream we will take a quick look at Danú, a new probiotic bonsai innoculant designed for improving bonsai health How to use it, wh...

www.youtube.com

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I don't know a hell of a lot about the science myself, but have started using some products just recently this season - lets see! I started with the 'remedial' type of inoculant to help improve a sickly Sabina. In the UK and Ireland 'Danú' 'Maru' and related products inc biochar sold by Harry Harrington and Peter Warren are the famous ones. The liquids tend to need to be refrigerated and have a short shelflife. The founder/academic has been on the Mirai podcast, and there have been a few other discussions. Here is Peter Warren (I haven't actually watched this yet, looks long and slow )

Danú Probiotic innoculant for bonsai - Live Stream with Peter Warren

Following on from the last stream we will take a quick look at Danú, a new probiotic bonsai innoculant designed for improving bonsai health How to use it, wh...

www.youtube.com

I reviewed this product on this forum somewhere.
Summarized: great for soft indoor plants and remarkably beneficial, outdoors no signs of improvement.
A full winter later, counting buds, I see no notable difference between treated and untreated. Indoors the problems reoccur about a month or two when use is stopped.
For some reason these microbes don't become commensals to my plants. But I have fungi that do: trichoderma harzarium and trichoderma viride are good options for bonsai. But here too it seems that "the greener the plant, the better they hold". In the sense that citrus and more herbaceous plants reap greater benefits than for instance pines or junipers.