Is inverse taper a deal-breaker for you?

rockm

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Just did a Google search, and it appears archeologists believe Neanderthals did practice art, but not what modern people interpret as art. Selling, showing, comparing, communicating, etc. is the result of art, not the reason it exists. IMHO. Your opinion may differ, and that's OK.
Wasn't arguing Neanderthals created art. Was saying that in some form that art is communication, either religious/magical (communicating with diety), hunting (communicating with fellow hunters), etc. It wasn't apparently done just for the simple amusement of the artist.
 

Joe Dupre'

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Wasn't arguing Neanderthals created art. Was saying that in some form that art is communication, either religious/magical (communicating with diety), hunting (communicating with fellow hunters), etc. It wasn't apparently done just for the simple amusement of the artist.
It may well have been, but I didn't come across that in my research. Something that happened thousands of years ago is going to be an inexact science, at best.
 

TinyArt

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Also, inverse taper?
Depends -- at this point, I can only speak as a bonsai viewer, rather than a bonsai do-er -- but I suspect that the few exceptional trees prove the majority rule.

The discussion sounds like "right brain" vs. "left brain" at times, but it seems to me that while rules set the stage, the most successful bonsai "players" are the ones with an intuitive feeling for material -- a sense of "rightness" that's their very own. (I'd be curious to see the trees that experienced folks love but leave home when it's show time...)

If you've got an eye for the soulful and the evocative, or the gift of finding that essence in a trunk to develop, that makes your trees a pleasure for me to see. I enjoy a by-the-rules beauty, no mistake, but the odd characters can be just as arresting. Not common. And the world does need both.
 

rockm

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It may well have been, but I didn't come across that in my research. Something that happened thousands of years ago is going to be an inexact science, at best.
Yeah, but research helps.

 

leatherback

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Is art art if there is no common understanding?

Of course, one can glue a banana against a wall and convince others it is art to the point of paying top prices for it. To me, it is a banana against a wall

Bonsai? Shrub? What's the difference if not because of some joint understanding (=rules)

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ShadyStump

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Is art art if there is no common understanding?

Of course, one can glue a banana against a wall and convince others it is art to the point of paying top prices for it. To me, it is a banana against a wall

Bonsai? Shrub? What's the difference if not because of some joint understanding (=rules)

View attachment 404025View attachment 404026
Very well said.
In that context, then, we can say there are rules that we all generally agree on that define bonsai.
However, the question is one of defining good bonsai.
I think we have all agreed through the course of the discussion that good is in the eye of the beholder (or the beer-holder ;)), even if there are generally accepted concepts of positive vs negative attributes.
 

Joe Dupre'

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There's no doubt that much of the paintings and figures were for some type of communication. My thought is that it grew out of the urge for art that was already in existence. I also noticed in the articles they used a lot of "may", "possibly" , "it appears" type of explanations. I also agree with that.
 

ShadyStump

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Now you are getting close to semantics though..

If you like, some of my ponderings: https://www.growingbonsai.net/what-is-a-bonsai/
That article looks very familiar like I've come across it before back in my super-noob days. Ya know, back when I hadn't yet accepted my roll as the Grim Reaper of potted woody things.

But you are right, it's a matter of semantics, which brings us all the way back to the initial post and the OP's title: Is it a deal breaker?
Good, bad, ugly or otherwise, is it something YOU as an individual can be happy with or not?
 

leatherback

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Good, bad, ugly or otherwise, is it something YOU as an individual can be happy with or not?
in the end it comes down the fact that very few of us will create a "perfect bonsai". It is how convincing is the overall image. If it works, it works. All trees have their flaws, or suboptimal points if you prefer. If the overall image portrays that of an aged miniature tree, that should not matter that mucht.
 

ShadyStump

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in the end it comes down the fact that very few of us will create a "perfect bonsai". It is how convincing is the overall image. If it works, it works. All trees have their flaws, or suboptimal points if you prefer. If the overall image portrays that of an aged miniature tree, that should not matter that mucht.
I heartily agree.
 
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