Is inverse taper a deal-breaker for you?

Forsoothe!

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Words mean things. While things in nature can be beautiful, they are not art because they do not exist because of the hand of man. The word, "art" includes some higher level of effort, excellence, accomplishment, etc to make it worthy of admiration, at some level, by someone. While anything can become art, everything is not art. Art is not ordinary, it is better than normal and intended to be something superior. "Bad art" is an oxymoron.
 

Joe Dupre'

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FWIW I don't find anything wrong with your tree that time and additional development won't cure.
Still don't get it, eh? ;) While I'm open to other's opinions, there will probably not be much "curing" going on. The canopy will be grown out and maybe the nebari will be improved.
 

ShadyStump

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I think it's one of those things that seems to be used, or at least heard, as a judgement, when in fact it's simply a description of one facet of the tree.
Can it be good? Sure.
Can it be bad? Sure.
Can it be too much? Yup.
Can it be not enough? I would argue there are occasionally situations where the answer is, "yes," a particular tree absolutely could use more inverse taper to smooth out the lines, or balance another aspect.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Still don't get it, eh? ;) While I'm open to other's opinions, there will probably not be much "curing" going on. The canopy will be grown out and maybe the nebari will be improved.
I get it... really I do. At our study groups in SoCal we would all listen to each others' opinions... and in 50% of the cases we would ignore them. However sometimes someone would suggest something that would cause you to think in a different way. It doesn't mean that one opinion is "best".

One of the reasons why I valued the opinion of @Si Nguyen was because he had a different aesthetic and would cause me to think outside of my design box. @ianb and I were too alike :) I would look at Ian's trees and think - I would do the same!

At the risk of annoying you further... how about embracing the movement of the lower trunk with a big bend?

annoyance.jpg
 

ShadyStump

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I don't hate that look, actually.
I do have to say that maybe some lower branching would provide more context for that inverse taper. If by chance you get buds that break there, I would keep them and develop them into something gives the inverse taper a raeson d'etre so to speak.

Edit: Or build on @Bonsai Nut's suggestion with a branch out of the outside of that curve in the trunk.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Edit: Or build on @Bonsai Nut's suggestion with a branch out of the outside of that curve in the trunk.
Though most of the time I would agree with you (in terms of a branch on the right) what I was trying to do in that virt was to create power/attention in the bend. By bringing the trunk back over the lower trunk, I am hoping to create a sense of age. "Old fat man walking down the street." The design is in balance because you visually assume the apex will be directly over the nebari. You could easily extend branches left or right, and take the design in a different direction, but right now it is pleasing (to me) because it is so balanced. But obviously the beauty of art is that everyone sees it in a different way :)
 

Joe Dupre'

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I get it... really I do. At our study groups in SoCal we would all listen to each others' opinions... and in 50% of the cases we would ignore them. However sometimes someone would suggest something that would cause you to think in a different way. It doesn't mean that one opinion is "best".

One of the reasons why I valued the opinion of @Si Nguyen was because he had a different aesthetic and would cause me to think outside of my design box. @ianb and I were too alike :) I would look at Ian's trees and think - I would do the same!

At the risk of annoying you further... how about embracing the movement of the lower trunk with a big bend?

View attachment 404064
No, that wouldn't annoy me in the least. I do like the suggestion. Don't know if I could get that much bend though. My whole beef about the rules thing is how many people buy into the two books written 50+ years ago as the Gospel truth. In reference to the right brain/left brain post up above, people are born with a certain method of facing the world. I'm a right brain seat-of-the-pants type of guy. I'll be willing to bet that the rule- conscious left brain types are engineers, machinists, plant operators and such. They were born with a different (not better or worse) way of facing the world. I just resent the subliminal or overt ( much worse) attitude that my way is wrong. I'll not insinuate that your way is wrong if you'll (not you in particular BN) do the same for me.
 

Bonsai Nut

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No, that wouldn't annoy me in the least. I do like the suggestion. Don't know if I could get that much bend though. My whole beef about the rules thing is how many people buy into the two books written 50+ years ago as the Gospel truth. In reference to the right brain/left brain post up above, people are born with a certain method of facing the world. I'm a right brain seat-of-the-pants type of guy. I'll be willing to bet that the rule- conscious left brain types are engineers, machinists, plant operators and such. They were born with a different (not better or worse) way of facing the world. I just resent the subliminal or overt ( much worse) attitude that my way is wrong. I'll not insinuate that your way is wrong if you'll (not you in particular BN) do the same for me.
The only reason for people to post on this site is to find people that they disagree with :) Embrace it! That doesn't mean you have to except it... but seek out contradiction!

After all, if everyone agrees with you, why even come here? You can stay at home and bask in bonsai excellence :) After 30+ years in bonsai, I question whether I am going stale. I look at my trees and they make me happy... even in their imperfections. But when I share my trees with others they generally get better :)

(apologies if I sound preachy... I start to type and share my thoughts and I hope that I do not sound condescending)
 

ShadyStump

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Though most of the time I would agree with you (in terms of a branch on the right) what I was trying to do in that virt was to create power/attention in the bend. By bringing the trunk back over the lower trunk, I am hoping to create a sense of age. "Old fat man walking down the street." The design is in balance because you visually assume the apex will be directly over the nebari. You could easily extend branches left or right, and take the design in a different direction, but right now it is pleasing (to me) because it is so balanced. But obviously the beauty of art is that everyone sees it in a different way :)
Ah, I see it now. I do like that metaphor too.
I was approaching it from the original topic context of the taper. That and in my younger days I wanted to be an architect, but I couldn't break my head out of the "symetry" box for some reason. Add on I don't actually have any talent for it, and I gave up on the idea. Though I still seem to be forcing myself to think asymetrically.
I think I was leaning toward "old fat hobo, goods in a sack on a stick" image. Maybe just grow something there to make a jin later. Again the reason for the inverse taper, but nothing that would distract too much from the rest.
 

Scrogdor

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So, for the people that don't like inverse taper, is it mostly because you genuinely don't like the look or is it the "rule" thing...........not traditional in some way? A friend tries to go by most of the rules and ends up with trees that are technically "right" but maybe could have been better for leaving some flaws. The ERC in my avatar has two branches coming out of the trunk in almost the same area. The rules say I should remove one of them for that reason. To me, the whole soul of the tree would be compromised.
In general, inverse taper looks better. Are there exceptions, yeah. Bonsai is also evolving and changing just like most art does. Nothing is absolute.
 

leatherback

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how many people buy into the two books written 50+ years ago as the Gospel truth
I like what you did there
I look at my trees and they make me happy... even in their imperfections. But when I share my trees with others they generally get better
This requires a very open mind. And I like that the atmosphere in this group is as such. If I look at some of the fakebook groups.. You say anything that does not include "your tree is perfect" people cannot wait to tell you off for being unsupportive. Criticism aimed to improve is the best you can get!

In general, inverse taper looks better.
You really think so?
 

Potawatomi13

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Actually, to be honest, "perfection" is not a positive thing for me. The extra time, effort and expense of attaining perfection is almost never worth it for me.
Very good saying. Yamadori often have great perfection in imperfection. Picturesque often stunning breaking of rules☺️.
 

Forsoothe!

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Yes, and many yamadori are so natural that they have no redeeming value other than having been collected here or there. Merely being old conveys nothing extra automatically. There is "old and picturesque", and there is plain old "old". Almost everything needs a little skilled helped in getting to a higher plane. Everyone accepts that there is one best view of a tree. In that same vein of thinking some yamadori have no "best side" and are firewood with foliage.
 

ShadyStump

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Everyone accepts that there is one best view of a tree.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Bonsai is as much the art of sculpture as horticulture. The three dimensional aspect of it is what really make's it an artform.
In that sense, a well developed tree should have a fairly wide angle of view from which it looks good. In fact I'd say that the best trees are viewed best in motion- the relative movement while you're walking by them- with effects created from the seeming movement of branches from the spectator's view point.
I will admit, though, that there are few who have ever really achieved this well because of the complexities of the horticultural side of things. That said, however, we can agree that some deciduous look better from one side while in leaf, but then another side when defoliated.
 
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