Is it safe yet?

[Tachigi]

Is this because the qaulity of cultivated trees are just as good if not better?

A deciduous tree can be built from scratch as long as it has a nice trunk. I have collected my fair share of them, all collected for the trunk alone. Most times the collected deciduous trees don't have low enough branch placement. Now saying all this there are exceptions to this, however I don't believe it is the norm. So one would speculate that if you have to grow branches on these, then growing the whole tree to get exactly what you want is not that much of a further stretch. An example would be this elm. Nice trunk but with branching that was useless, so off they came.

Well I was going to post a pictures but the site is having problems .... will try later

 

[Tachigi]

Photos to my post

 

[cbobgo]

I think that the problem with this discussion is that people are trying to see things in absolutes. It is not logical to say that all yamadori are better than all prebonsai which are better than all nursery stock. I don't think anyone has claimed that. (Except Vance's statements that this is what people are telling him.)

But if you look at each group as a whole, the percentage of high quality trees coming out of each group probably does flow along those lines. If you took 100 collected trees from Oregon bonsai and 100 prebonsai from Brent and 100 nursery trees from your favorite garden/landscape nursery, you will have significantly more GOOD bonsai from the first 2 groups. That's not to say you can't get good bonsai from a nursery, but you have to look alot harder and alot longer.

I look at trees everytime I go to any nursery. In my 8 years of doing bonsai I have purchased I'm sure over 100 trees from regular nurseries to work on. Out of those, I think I have 4 or 5 that might someday make a nice tree.

In 1 day at oregon bonsai I bought 4 collected pines, all of which will make incredible bonsai, and they probably cost me about the same as those 100 trees from regular nurseries.

You can do bonsai any way you want, with any material you want. But shouldn't you start with the best material you can? Where-ever you can get it. Doesn't matter if you bought it from Wallmart or from Walter Pall. But start with the best stuff you can find/afford.

- bob

 

[Chris Johnston]

Amen to that, Bob. That's all I have ever heard anyone saying from that side of the story anyway.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think that the problem with this discussion is that people are trying to see things in absolutes. It is not logical to say that all yamadori are better than all prebonsai which are better than all nursery stock. I don't think anyone has claimed that. (Except Vance's statements that this is what people are telling him.)

But if you look at each group as a whole, the percentage of high quality trees coming out of each group probably does flow along those lines. If you took 100 collected trees from Oregon bonsai and 100 prebonsai from Brent and 100 nursery trees from your favorite garden/landscape nursery, you will have significantly more GOOD bonsai from the first 2 groups. That's not to say you can't get good bonsai from a nursery, but you have to look alot harder and alot longer.

I look at trees everytime I go to any nursery. In my 8 years of doing bonsai I have purchased I'm sure over 100 trees from regular nurseries to work on. Out of those, I think I have 4 or 5 that might someday make a nice tree.

In 1 day at oregon bonsai I bought 4 collected pines, all of which will make incredible bonsai, and they probably cost me about the same as those 100 trees from regular nurseries.

You can do bonsai any way you want, with any material you want. But shouldn't you start with the best material you can? Where-ever you can get it. Doesn't matter if you bought it from Wallmart or from Walter Pall. But start with the best stuff you can find/afford.

- bob

I think this is what I have been trying to say.

 

[bretts]

Thanks for the elm pics Tom I love it

 

[Graydon]

Doesn't matter if you bought it from Wallmart or from Walter Pall. But start with the best stuff you can find/afford.

- bob

Walter is selling stuff? I am so there... except for the import regulations...

Bob that was a great summation. Thanks.

 

[cbobgo]

I don't know if Walter is selling or not, just thought it had a nice alliteration with Wallmart.

- bob

 

[JasonG]

I think that the problem with this discussion is that people are trying to see things in absolutes. It is not logical to say that all yamadori are better than all prebonsai which are better than all nursery stock. I don't think anyone has claimed that. (Except Vance's statements that this is what people are telling him.)

But if you look at each group as a whole, the percentage of high quality trees coming out of each group probably does flow along those lines. If you took 100 collected trees from Oregon bonsai and 100 prebonsai from Brent and 100 nursery trees from your favorite garden/landscape nursery, you will have significantly more GOOD bonsai from the first 2 groups. That's not to say you can't get good bonsai from a nursery, but you have to look alot harder and alot longer.

I look at trees everytime I go to any nursery. In my 8 years of doing bonsai I have purchased I'm sure over 100 trees from regular nurseries to work on. Out of those, I think I have 4 or 5 that might someday make a nice tree.

In 1 day at oregon bonsai I bought 4 collected pines, all of which will make incredible bonsai, and they probably cost me about the same as those 100 trees from regular nurseries.

You can do bonsai any way you want, with any material you want. But shouldn't you start with the best material you can? Where-ever you can get it. Doesn't matter if you bought it from Wallmart or from Walter Pall. But start with the best stuff you can find/afford.

- bob

After skimming through the endless debate here I think Bob has hit the nail on the head!

Oh, Yes Walter sales trees.... PallMart!!! Sorry, couldn't help that one!! Seriously though, he does have trees in America that he gets rid of from time to time... and in the coming few years he will have a TON of them that he will style and sale.....

See ya! Jason

 

[Smoke]

Wisdom/Experience

As in life, with growth and experience comes wisdom. Wisdom tells us that the quickest way to a superb collection of great bonsai is to purchase stock that has most of the desirable attributes going for it from the get go. Many budding artist look at this approach as a cop out and a giving in to the fact that a person may have no bonsai skills. On the contrary, this idea just gives those willing to purchase desirable stock a significant advantage over those wishing to style bonsai from undesirable common nursery stock.

Life is short compared to that of a tree. Refusal to accept this philosophy only sets back the budding artist with the available years to bring out the real beauty in a piece of purchased material. While it may take ten or more years to move a nursery tree to the purchased stock point, and no guarantees, a purchased piece of stock might be show worthy in two or three years.

This was the second paragraph in the Editorial that started all the threads about stock. I thought this just about said the same thing as Bob. I wonder where all the confusion came from? Also note that I highlighted a couple key words within my quote that should have hopefully made sense. If these words were skimmed over, since they were before "common nursery stock", then I could understand all the confusion. Nursery stock never had a blanket thrown over it.

I think my editorial could have been written from a different point of view also. What if Vance wrote a similar article about the short comings of crappy collected stock over the great bonsai that have been made from common nursery material. I guess we each have to respect where each person is coming from. I know I respect what Vance said earlier about not having junipers in Michigan that will ever look like those I collected. On the other hand, I have never seen a mugo pine in any nursery I shop in here in a container larger than a gallon. They do exist I'm sure, but most nurseries in Fresno do not even carry mugo's. They are just not very popular as a landscape plant here. I'm sure they are grown here by the thousands and all shipped to Michigan.

When I first started bonsai I could buy San Jose Junipers in five gallon cans with two and three inch trunks all day. They were everywhere twenty years ago. I haven't seen a San Jose juniper for sale anywhere for over ten years. They just don't exist here any more. A shame, they are a fast growers and do make superb bonsai. Most of the best junipers from the greats in Los Angelas are grafted shimpaku on San Jose trunks.

Regards, Al

Al

 

[Anonymous User]

Which editorial Al, I haven't seen one here, you got a link?

 

[Smoke]

It was from Ed. VIII at BT.

Hows that for abbreviations

 

[Anonymous User]

Thanks, Al, I'll try to get over there and read it.



Will