Is it too early for air layers and cuttings

[milehigh_7]

Well I for one appreciate Gary and I hope this silliness does not drive him away.

 

[FrankP999]

Well I for one appreciate Gary and I hope this silliness does not drive him away.

I agree. Gary's posts always teach me something.

 

[daygan]

I hope I'm not being silly. I really do want to understand each person's reasoning regarding this subject.

 

[Poink88]

Well I for one appreciate Gary and I hope this silliness does not drive him away.

Why should it? It is just a discussion and should end as a learning experience for me (or him) and others.

 

[Poink88]

Poink88, regardless of Gary's thoughts about your posts, I am curious just as a learner. Below, I've paraphrased what you said earlier to make it a little clearer for myself (and maybe others?):

And here are my two questions about the different times for different methods:

1.Are you suggesting that if an air layer were started as the buds start to swell, that it would not be able to use its stored energy to grow roots and leaves? If so, why not? Or is there another reason that air layers shouldn't be started as buds start to swell?

2. On the flip side, are you suggesting that if cuttings are taken after new leaves have hardened off, that, unlike an air layered branch, its leaves would not be able to assist in the production of roots? If so, why not?

First, I am not suggesting those. I would re-iterate that I believe there is a big window of opportunity to do both. What I posted is what I believe is the optimal time for each method. It can vary for each variety of plant, your climate, etc.

In both cases, plant coming out of dormancy have stored energy...so it should work BUT it is not the peak time for air layer IMHO. Air layer is still attached to the tree and have continues supply from the mother plant (the cutting doesn't) running up through the sap wood (xylem). What it's leaves produce will attempt to flow down through the phloem but since it is chocked with a tourniquet or ring carved, it cannot flow downwards and will be stored at the air layer area forcing roots to grow.

The leavers on a cutting can and will help to produce roots also but it is a tricky balancing act for you to determine how much water the cutting can supply it. If you over estimate, then you can lose that leaf...again what little energy wasted may may spell your cutting's survival or demise. To be on the safe side, I use one coming out of dormancy. On broad leaf evergreens, I still use ones with buds formed.

I hope this makes sense to some since I (as posted above) do not articulate my thoughts as well as most.

 

[daygan]

Thanks for explaining your reasons. I think you did a pretty good job of clarifying the "whys" ...

 

[johng]

Dario, perhaps you might post a few pics of the bonsai or even material that you have developed via cuttings and/or air layers. This might go a long ways toward building your reputation here.

 

[Poink88]

John,

Unlike you, I have no excellent pieces to show.

I am not hanged up with reputation either. I will try to build it as I go...the way I want. Some people don't like me (you included) because I say it as I (objectively) see it.

 

[daygan]

Okay, so, Dario is using two different times here - bud-swell and leaf-hardening - neither of which are the time that Gary is saying is the most ideal, that being right after bud-break. In his comparison, Dario hasn't really said directly that either of these times are better or worse for either method than after bud-break.

Now, I'm simplifying and paraphrasing what Dario has said here:

A. Air layering doesn't work as well during bud-swell (as it does after leaf-hardening) because leaves haven't matured yet and are not able to provide as much (nutrition? energy?) for root production. The extra energy push that it would get during bud-swell is not as significant a benefit as the extra life-line that it gets from the parent tree in combination with nutrition provided by mature leaves if started after leaf-hardening.

B. A cutting will not do as well if taken after leaves have hardened off because it won't have that extra "energy" push that it has at the bud-swell period. This extra push is important for the cutting because it doesn't have the added benefit of the parent tree lifeline that an air layer has.

Now, Gary, I trust Ang3lfir3 and Brian when they vouch for your knowledge and success rate, so I'm hoping you're still around to provide more information. I have two questions:

1. If we disregard the in-between time of bud-break when there's an extra push of auxins and don't factor that into the equation, are A. and B. correct?

2. I'm presuming that you'll say (regardless of whether A. and B. are correct), that the auxins that are present during bud-break still make this a more ideal time for both cuttings and air layers than either of the other two times. Is that correct?

--- Edit: I just realized that I was mistaken regarding Gary's timing, which would be just before bud-break, not after. Regardless, I'll leave what I wrote as is, and if anyone would like to add more information to this discussion, I for one would love to learn.