Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Adair M]

Sorce, I think you post in a “stream of conscience” mode. That the rest of the world isn’t clued into. I really can’t make heads or tails out of most of what you post.

I’m sure you’re intelligent. Just operating in your own dimension of space-time.

Back to Bonsai Education...

One of the toughest things for a beginner is to separate out good information from bad. There’s tons of bad information, being spread by good people with good intentions who just don’t know that the information they have or have been taught is actually bad.

Take, for example, thisvideo:

Now Jason is a nice guy, I’m sure he meant well, but the information and demonstration is just awful! Destructive, actually! You can see that the “watered” bonsai he shows has had all the soil (such as it is) washed away from the rootball! Then proceeds to demonstrate how to do exactly that!

A beginner looking at that might think that’s the way it’s supposed to be done!

So when I see something like that, I feel it’s my duty to alert the community that what they’re seeing is not recommended, and is a poor practice. Yes, some might not like being criticized, and get mad about it. Tough beans.

 

[sorce]

It's intended to kick around this thing, like "backbudding" that we throw around so loosely. "Thin skinned".

Oh, call the newb thin skinned but the thin skinned are among us.

And if we SO hate the "thin skinned" ones why are we paper ourselves?

Go back and search "thin- skinned"...

Loads of projecting!

But hey....can't hate!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Sorce, I think you post in a “stream of conscience” mode. That the rest of the world isn’t clued into. I really can’t make heads or tails out of most of what you post.

I’m sure you’re intelligent. Just operating in your own dimension of space-time.

Back to Bonsai Education...

One of the toughest things for a beginner is to separate out good information from bad. There’s tons of bad information, being spread by good people with good intentions who just don’t know that the information they have or have been taught is actually bad.

Take, for example, thisvideo:

Now Jason is a nice guy, I’m sure he meant well, but the information and demonstration is just awful! Destructive, actually! You can see that the “watered” bonsai he shows has had all the soil (such as it is) washed away from the rootball! Then proceeds to demonstrate how to do exactly that!

A beginner looking at that might think that’s the way it’s supposed to be done!

So when I see something like that, I feel it’s my duty to alert the community that what they’re seeing is not recommended, and is a poor practice. Yes, some might not like being criticized, and get mad about it. Tough beans.

Lol.
Simplify and dismiss!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Attack someone who is not here.

Lol..
Keep going.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Attack someone who is not here.

Lol..
Keep going.

Sorce

Actually, no. I am not attacking Jason, the person. I am pointing out bad bonsai practices. I’m sure that at the time he made this video, he thought that’s how it should be done! (Hopefully he doesn’t do it like that any more!)

That’s what I do here. If I see someone posting something that I feel is wrong, or a poor practice, or an example that is misleading, I will call them out. I only do it if I have personal experience or other solid evidence that contradicts whatever it is that’s wrong. Maybe you think I shouldn’t do that. That’s a whole different discussion. But my motive is to separate the good information from the bad, based upon my experience and education. I try to pass along the good, and suppress the bad.

 

[0soyoung]

And you're just another crank if you cannot explain why.

 

[Warpig]

Sorce, I think you post in a “stream of conscience” mode. That the rest of the world isn’t clued into. I really can’t make heads or tails out of most of what you post.

I’m sure you’re intelligent. Just operating in your own dimension of space-time.

Back to Bonsai Education...

One of the toughest things for a beginner is to separate out good information from bad. There’s tons of bad information, being spread by good people with good intentions who just don’t know that the information they have or have been taught is actually bad.

Take, for example, thisvideo:

Now Jason is a nice guy, I’m sure he meant well, but the information and demonstration is just awful! Destructive, actually! You can see that the “watered” bonsai he shows has had all the soil (such as it is) washed away from the rootball! Then proceeds to demonstrate how to do exactly that!

A beginner looking at that might think that’s the way it’s supposed to be done!

So when I see something like that, I feel it’s my duty to alert the community that what they’re seeing is not recommended, and is a poor practice. Yes, some might not like being criticized, and get mad about it. Tough beans.

My face when he turns on the water! Too funny.

 

[Owen Reich]

Well this is how it should be. You, as a high end professional, should not be having to teach horticulture. Then, by that extension, you can not easily teach how to convey emotion and artistry either. Van Gogh could no doubt teach how paint, but not how to create his artwork. That would just seem like a monumental waste when he could be creating more art himself. “Those who can not do, teach”, is the usual phrase that comes to mind so maybe that should extend to, “Those who can create beauty, shouldn’t have time for teaching.”

You create the art, create the inspiration, keep showing what people can aspire to. Make your money from selling art. Maybe have an apprentice or two who can then teach as they work their way up to master level, if needs be. Or, have people come to you on a very limited basis from time to time. That is the role of the pro in my eyes, not to be a travelling showman.

Anyone with sufficient experience can teach the fundamentals of bonsai. From my viewpoint, as a beginner (maybe naively) it isn’t complicated. It is not the techniques and horticultural applications which are difficult, it’s almost like a flowchart. When this happens do this, in this situation do that or don’t do that. It is the artistry and nuances which are the difficult and hard to convey parts. That is where pros should make their dough, if they really must teach.

Well said. As noted earlier, I’m a bit jaded. I do my best to function within the system, but keep wondering why some parts of the bonsai organizations in North America continue to repeat the same stuff and their groups suffer

Having people come to your studio might be good for static western art like painting and sculpture. Bonsai is neither. It is, fortunately or unfortunately, an intricate mix of art and horticulture. Both are inextricably linked, can't do one without the other. Creating beautiful bonsai requires understanding both. That knowledge can't be taught all at once.

Also, the "create beauty and they will come" is a pretty risky proposition to base a bonsai business on, especially in a very large country like the U.S. Professionals have to keep their lights on at home and feed their dogs...and pay (maybe) apprentices. You can't really make a living selling high end bonsai "art" (some people doing it--but it's a slog...there is more money in high end bonsai POTS these days in the U.S. than in "masterpiece" trees) Traveling offers a source of more reliable income.

The model of paid, in-person bonsai instruction has a very long history here. There were folks back in the 90's that tried it and failed. Those people were mostly backyard practitioners who got ambitious, but hadn't gotten instruction themselves. There were a handful of Japanese-bonsai trained people, but you had to look hard. The hope these days is that the instructors (ever more of them getting hands-on experience in Japan) can fill the void. Same in the U.K., Europe and even Russia.

There is no accurate flow chart for a tree's development. They aren't all alike, owners aren't all alike and weather (at least here in the U.S.) is a huge factor in developing trees.

You can be a traveling bonsai pro if you can promote yourself, entertain (sort of part of it but too much), deal with extreme ignorance, know how to empathize with and teach socially awkward introverts, have escape plan prepared and host vetted at each stop, etc etc.

Yes, I am able to travel and work on bonsai and get paid for it; and at times it’s a lot of fun. There is a cost for everything.

It’s my sincere hope that people question if their programs and events are utilizing talent to the greatest effect. If it’s working, great.

When I go to a new club, I ask someone who’s seasoned in the area what the area NEEDS. Could be using display tables under their bonsai. The how, why and why not to use certain things.

 

[crust]

Bonsai pros always want to work with wealthy people; better material to work on, and often good taste, respect for our time, understanding what it costs to hire a consultant, etc. I’ve worked with crazy cat (as in 50 cats) ladies, children who saved up their odd job money to try bonsai, etc.

The idea of having study group members who receive training then share with the locals is the kind of ripple effect that will work in my opinion.

It must be reinforced with tactile training though.

Without patrons there isn’t much great art created. It’s really that simple. If you have bonsai, you are not worried about your next meal. I work with and help out many who can’t afford great bonsai, but show sincere interest.

Someone mentioned that the people who really want to learn, will succeed. I write this post as many bonsai pros seems to be tightening up their client lists. This can be attributed to the National Bonsai Exhibition, and the good natured competition to even get into Bill’s show now. That exhibition continues to impress, raise quality standards and inspire even the seasoned to push their own limits.

sad but true

 

[markyscott]

Well said. As noted earlier, I’m a bit jaded. I do my best to function within the system, but keep wondering why some parts of the bonsai organizations in North America continue to repeat the same stuff and their groups suffer

You can be a traveling bonsai pro if you can promote yourself, entertain (sort of part of it but too much), deal with extreme ignorance, know how to empathize with and teach socially awkward introverts, have escape plan prepared and host vetted at each stop, etc etc.

Yes, I am able to travel and work on bonsai and get paid for it; and at times it’s a lot of fun. There is a cost for everything.

It’s my sincere hope that people question if their programs and events are utilizing talent to the greatest effect. If it’s working, great.

When I go to a new club, I ask someone who’s seasoned in the area what the area NEEDS. Could be using display tables under their bonsai. The how, why and why not to use certain things.

Owen - have you considered starting your own club that you could run on your own terms? That was something Boon did with Bay Island Bonsai and I believe that it had an impact. He partnered with others who ran the administrative stuff and membership required, among other things, participating in workshops at his nursery and showing trees in the club show. His show was very professional and was known as one of the best in the area. I think it definitely elevated bonsai in the Bay Area and a number of really good artists (Jonas Dupuich, Eric Schrader, Matt Walker and many others) passed through that organization. It’s another model - maybe the solution is not just one thing, but rather a palette of educational opportunities.

It seems like it’s something rather unique to Boon and I’ve wondered why other professionals have not tried, as far as I know, to replicate that model.

- S

 

[Owen Reich]

Yes I guess it is true and depends on your clientele and how you want to balance your life. It just strikes me that rushing round the country to here, there and everywhere, cramming in lectures and lessons etc or having to turbo style a tree and having nobody learn anything is rather “unbonsai”. I don’t know, but I suspect this is what Owen was getting at with his original post. It’d certainly do my noodle in.

The road life is a requirement for a time in my opinion. A two year stint seems reasonable. Find enough people (your vibe attracts your tribe) to work with and ideally travel only part time.

 

[Adair M]

And you're just another crank if you cannot explain why.

I can explain why. But is that the best use of my time? During the time I use to do a detail explanation, I might be able to demonstrate other techniques, work on two other people’s trees, talk about how to choose a pot, demonstrate how to prep for a show... all kinds of things that you just can’t learn from a book! Or a google search.

If someone REALLY wants to know all about auxin and it’s effect on tree growth, well, they can research it on their own time. The other 5 people don’t care, and it’s a waste of my time and their’s to explain it!

 

[Owen Reich]

Owen - have you considered starting your own club that you could run on your own terms? That was something Boon did with Bay Island Bonsai and I believe that it had an impact. He partnered with others who ran the administrative stuff and membership required, among other things, participating in workshops at his nursery and showing trees in the club show. His show was very professional and was known as one of the best in the area. I think it definitely elevated bonsai in the Bay Area and a number of really good artists (Jonas Dupuich, Eric Schrader, and many others) passed through that organization. It’s another model - maybe the solution is not just one thing, but rather a palette of educational opportunities.

It seems like it’s something rather unique to Boon and I’ve wondered why other professionals have not tried, as far as I know, to replicate that model.

- S

Scott, I have considered that for sure. Just stabilized from full time travel to full stop, so perhaps one day soon . The Bay Island Show is something I’d like to see in person. The quality of the bonsai never fails to impress overall.

The Nashville Bonsai Society is growing rapidly.
From 7 members at rock bottom a few years back to 125ish I believe last year. Not because of me. I’m quietly helping.

 

[Adair M]

I can attest to the quality of the BIB show. Boon hopes to have one in 2021, now that he’s more settled in to his new place. He’s trying to figure out where to hold it.

 

[Owen Reich]

Yes I guess it is true and depends on your clientele and how you want to balance your life. It just strikes me that rushing round the country to here, there and everywhere, cramming in lectures and lessons etc or having to turbo style a tree and having nobody learn anything is rather “unbonsai”. I don’t know, but I suspect this is what Owen was getting at with his original post. It’d certainly do my noodle in.

Well, source, sometimes, we old guys see a lot of unnecessary BS and hocus pocus that tends to complicate things. A lot of us have been working to "un-hocus pocus" bonsai for people for a while. We tend to doubt short cuts, metaphysical woo-woo explanations...

When you should work a tree IS simple. You do it when you see it is time-- I don't use tides, full moons or the length of a horse's hair to determine that time. direct observation OF THE TREE is what works. Relying on yourself and your experience (which takes time) is far better than reinterpreting the seasons, or moon phases.

And, BTW, you simply tend to fuzz things up with vague, indirect talk--which can be very hard to understand. Being obtuse may be funny sometimes, but sometimes it just obtuse and foggy. Being upset with "old guys" like me when we can't directly translate WTF YOU'RE talking about is not OUR fault.

I’m fully with you on the logic and experience-based bonsai work.
Please test the sap flow theory developed way back and see if it works. Test it and form your own opinion. I thought it was hocus pocus too, until my Plant Physiology professor referenced it for transplant shock.

Mind you, I was a bonsai noob and first year horticulture student at the same time. Some professors hated the bonsai centric lines of questioning, but hey, it’s my dime . Having a horticultural background is why I explain things. Also helps if you can read people and determine if they are a concious / unconscious -competent / incompetent and growina family of psychologists and engineers. Also why Ryan Neil and other bonsai pros who have a BS or more in Horticulture working in this country do it so well; a strong foundation.


Nice to see this thread continuing on.

 

[Owen Reich]

I can explain why. But is that the best use of my time? During the time I use to do a detail explanation, I might be able to demonstrate other techniques, work on two other people’s trees, talk about how to choose a pot, demonstrate how to prep for a show... all kinds of things that you just can’t learn from a book! Or a google search.

If someone REALLY wants to know all about auxin and it’s effect on tree growth, well, they can research it on their own time. The other 5 people don’t care, and it’s a waste of my time and their’s to explain it!

To each their own on teaching styles. I took my first big workshop from Roy N. long ago. He ripped my $575 shimpaku (I was sponsored to take the class by the late, great Mike Blanton) in half with a trunk splitter without saying hello, or anything. Was he correct in his personal assessment of the material and best course? Yes. Was I mad as hell. Yes.

I’m sharing these stories because I’ve seen it from both the civilian and mercenary side. Hopefully Michael Hagedorn’s new book will shed some light on his ideas for the bonsai scene. Peter Warren’s blog is full of insight into the Japanese bonsai scene, without the spin.

 

[crust]

My impression on the general subject is demented by my non-typical trajectory, but then I suppose so is everyone's. Basically I think the labor/craft/art has been so fixed on back-looking and origin-centricity that to boldly moving forward is such a strange alien experience for most that it elicits pants-peeing terror and everyone immediately turns back again. I think if courage is mustered and bonsai ironically comes all the way around and back to its simple and pure core of what it was and what it still is---and with that, we celebrate by simply doing it well--there is hope. I think that some are.

Is the current Bonzo instructional system broken? I say no—no more than usual, is it in transition. Transitioning from an old club based system of aging lunkhead locals that regurgitated lame lifeless prescriptions, gave underwhelming kindergarten 1+2+3 instruction and raised blasé replicative bonzo that were clearly more about humdrum emulation than true gutsy fascination. Yearly, or bi-yearly, they would either bring in a traveling-teacher-slave to torture and salivate over or bring in an old Japanese Californian which would illicit awe and hush tones for 20 minutes and who, despite being nice guys, would not get much of anything done either, just as they were attempting to shift out of their grandma gear into Western spaghetti mode it was time to go. And off they went, and translation never really happened. In most cases, the only thing to transpire was tea-drinking, twittering and one-shot tree designing, one after another after another---and as the plane disappeared into the western horizon, everyone went back to their clueless tree care and resumed killing things and pondered their inauthenticity. Nowadays when an American pro, after years of brow-beating and bleary-eyed observation, appears from the moist loins of Japan, his/her only hope in the states is to survive on teaching(unless they are rich) side hustling tree sales and maybe peddling some bonsai goods and services—If they are lucky they will have time to have their own garden. If they are lucky they will somehow acquire great trees to work on or transform or kill and let others hack at. Hopefully, this new lot of teachers point their eyes forward instead of back and be inspiring and fresh and expose the truths of our world.

 

[Owen Reich]

@crust , well said my friend. I just laughed so hard my face hurts . I plan on pushing forward while respecting the past.

 

[crust]

Owen - have you considered starting your own club that you could run on your own terms? That was something Boon did with Bay Island Bonsai and I believe that it had an impact. He partnered with others who ran the administrative stuff and membership required, among other things, participating in workshops at his nursery and showing trees in the club show. His show was very professional and was known as one of the best in the area. I think it definitely elevated bonsai in the Bay Area and a number of really good artists (Jonas Dupuich, Eric Schrader, Matt Walker and many others) passed through that organization. It’s another model - maybe the solution is not just one thing, but rather a palette of educational opportunities.

It seems like it’s something rather unique to Boon and I’ve wondered why other professionals have not tried, as far as I know, to replicate that model.

- S

I don't intimately know Boon but his style of teaching is well known--and clearly produces well-versed soldiers. It seems as if the master/ minion format has worked for him and tough ruler-knuckle-smashing submission is appealing to a slice of the massive demographic of his area. I suppose this is a traditionally expected approach for many accolades but I'd say there are a lot of westerners who privately have fantasied about beating-up their old tyrant 4th-grade gym teachers and will not respond to pseudo autocratic dictators and tend to either be turned off or revolt, turn over the benches and start everything on fire. I know I always carry a lighter just in case. Luckily, for those that can afford travel and study, there has evolved a pretty broad spectrum of stylistic teachers here in the US---but of course, paid video work is rising to be the springboard of teaching and hopefully a money stream for the professionals so they can stay home and become regional experts instead of misspeaking generalists hack-daddies.

 

[bwaynef]

I don't intimately know Boon but his style of teaching is well known--and clearly produces well-versed soldiers. It seems as if the master/ minion format has worked for him and tough ruler-knuckle-smashing submission is appealing to a slice of the massive demographic of his area.

That depiction is the opposite of my experience, for whatever its worth.