Japanese maple [#01]

[MACH5]

In a word....sucks....
Serg, some how I know that this set back will only result in a better tree in your very capable and talented care.

I guess that is very much a part of our passion for working with a growing and living art form. Sometimes mother nature just reminds us the she is in charge...and we accept her challenge daily.

Good luck. Keep us posted. Share pics and progress if you can.

Thanks Will. Yes that is all part of the game when you deal with living things. Only so much we can control, and the rest is up to Lady Nature.

Some "setback"!


On a serious note, I wasn't impressed with growth on most of my Maples this year. Typical, rambunctious spring growth, if a little early. I'll need to address what I believe is a little too much light in my cold frame. Memorial day weekend was unseasonably hot, sandwiched by fairly warm, then cool, dry, super windy days. It seemed something similar, at least to me, to what I see here...(on much lesser material)....(crispy-er too)....

I was curious to see a photo of it, thanks for hangin' one up!! At least you could let the milk crates get a little dirty I'm gonna' go hose mine down right now!

The petiole thing is weird, that one looks like its trying to grow, not dry up and fall?!?! Some kinda' @MACH5 voodoo I suspect

Classy looking tree.......

Thank Lance! I honestly have not experienced a bad growing season at least thus far. All trees have behaved pretty much as expected... except this one!! Some of the petioles still look as if they had leaves on them. They do not appear as if they will drop any time soon either.

I wonder if the stubborn buds will push if/when it cools a bit in your locale? It's too bad timing wise, but at least the tree is healthy and not dealing with a true issue. Good luck, Serge.

Thanks Dave! I also wonder as well. Perhaps?? At least the tree is fine and giving me no reason to worry as far as its health. We'll see but I will probably contact Bill soon and officially ask to take this tree out of the exhibit. I will try again in 2018

 

[Timber]

The "stubborn" maple on the bench this morning after a rainfall. Roughly almost three quarters of the foliage is out.






Many of the petioles are still attached even two months after defoliation. Clearly this tree is in no hurry to get all its leaves out this year.






Even on those branches were the petioles have fallen, the buds appear dormant and unlikely they will do much this year. They may have bid good night until next spring!

I experienced the same results this year on a couple defoliated jap maples. I chalked it up to the higher than normal temps shutting the tree down instead of responding w fresh new growth like it normally would

 

[Don Blackmond]

This is a risk with a partial defoliation. Partially defoliating a perfectly healthy tree can result in few or no new leaves on the defoliated branches if you leave enough leaves to support existing growth requirements. The environmental conditions are a huge factor. Here, In Michigan, early to mid July is very hot and there is a mid-season dormancy period. Trees stop or slow active growth due to this environment. I defoliate after this period. Defoliating during means slow or no growth, and nonuniform growth. Unfortunately, the weather conditions have not followed normal patterns, and the hot/dry window has been a moving target.
In Sergio's case, early June should have been a fine time for defoliation, but hot/dry weather coupled with leaving enough leaves to sustain the tree's needs may have caused "lack of need" for all the new growth he wanted. Trees will only produce what they need.
One year, I defoliated a really old, show quality specimen trident maple in August. I don't think it produced a single leave the remainder of that season. The tree was perfectly fine; I was in complete distress.

 

[LanceMac10]

Aug. 2 '15 Sept. 1 '15
Trees out here on the ranch enjoy putting on wood at the end of August thru 'till November. Last year was a usual growing season, this year hot, dry and super windy. I worry that defoliating too early on certain trees I would like to get some color on wouldn't have a leaf in good shape for it. Homeboy needs to get some shade cloth!

 

[MACH5]

This is a risk with a partial defoliation. Partially defoliating a perfectly healthy tree can result in few or no new leaves on the defoliated branches if you leave enough leaves to support existing growth requirements. The environmental conditions are a huge factor. Here, In Michigan, early to mid July is very hot and there is a mid-season dormancy period. Trees stop or slow active growth due to this environment. I defoliate after this period. Defoliating during means slow or no growth, and nonuniform growth. Unfortunately, the weather conditions have not followed normal patterns, and the hot/dry window has been a moving target.
In Sergio's case, early June should have been a fine time for defoliation, but hot/dry weather coupled with leaving enough leaves to sustain the tree's needs may have caused "lack of need" for all the new growth he wanted. Trees will only produce what they need.
One year, I defoliated a really old, show quality specimen trident maple in August. I don't think it produced a single leave the remainder of that season. The tree was perfectly fine; I was in complete distress.

Thanks Don for chiming in. It's always good and helpful to hear a perspective from a professional. What I thought had happened seems to be echoed here. This begs the question of should I have defoliated the entire tree including all those weaker fine branches in the interior? I was concerned and defoliated cautiously and indeed it appears that I simply left too much.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I typically defoliate 100%. Even the weaker branches. If I do leave leaves on a weak branch its only a few leaves and only on branch tips. Other people do it differently, but that's how I do it.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I have a friend who works at one of the nicest bonsai collections in the USA. He defoliated a really nice Japanese Maple but had an emergency arise during the process, leaving the tree partially defoliated. He had started at the bottom and was working upwards, so only the bottom branches were bare and upper branches were full. Well, he did not get back to it in time and the defoliated branches only partially leafed out and some died back. There was no need to send energy out those low branches and they were discarded. Apically dominant tree.

 

[amkhalid]

The "stubborn" maple on the bench this morning after a rainfall. Roughly almost three quarters of the foliage is out.






Many of the petioles are still attached even two months after defoliation. Clearly this tree is in no hurry to get all its leaves out this year.






Even on those branches were the petioles have fallen, the buds appear dormant and unlikely they will do much this year. They may have bid good night until next spring!

Sorry to hear about this Sergio. I was looking forward to seeing this tree in person. Fingers crossed a miracle happens and it'll turn up in Rochester! I guess getting a tree ready for show is sometimes about pushing limits. I fully defoliated the larch I am showing - never done a full larch defoliation before. It bounced back, but didn't fill in as evenly as I would have liked. They are so apically dominant, there is a still a disparity in needle size.

Moat important thing is that the trees stay healthy for many shows to come.

Anyway, onwards and upwards as you say!

 

[MACH5]

Sorry to hear about this Sergio. I was looking forward to seeing this tree in person. Fingers crossed a miracle happens and it'll turn up in Rochester! I guess getting a tree ready for show is sometimes about pushing limits. I fully defoliated the larch I am showing - never done a full larch defoliation before. It bounced back, but didn't fill in as evenly as I would have liked. They are so apically dominant, there is a still a disparity in needle size.

Moat important thing is that the trees stay healthy for many shows to come.

Anyway, onwards and upwards as you say!

Thanks Aaron! I will need a miracle indeed! Anybody has one? Yes I believe within reason and not being stupid or reckless, I like to push my limits. I could have just as easily left the tree alone and show it. I thought I could do better and lost the bet this time around. If you remember, I did a partial repot of my Sharp's pygmy just to reposition the tree within the pot one week before the 2014 Nationals. That time it worked out! You can't move forward by being timid.

Looking forward to seeing you and your larch in September! Not to put you on the spot but do you have a thread of that tree?

 

[amkhalid]

Thanks Aaron! I will need a miracle indeed! Anybody has one? Yes I believe within reason and not being stupid or reckless, I like to push my limits. I could have just as easily left the tree alone and show it. I thought I could do better and lost the bet this time around. If you remember, I did a partial repot of my Sharp's pygmy just to reposition the tree within the pot one week before the 2014 Nationals. That time it worked out! You can't move forward by being timid.

Looking forward to seeing you and your larch in September! Not to put you on the spot but do you have a thread of that tree?

Yes, this is the larch:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/chuhin-tamarack-from-this-spring.23712/

Title is a bit of a gaff, the tree is actually a kifu. Hard size to show, it will get lost in Rochester. To help with that, I had a taller stand made.

I do remember the last minute repot. That definitely paid off!

I actually considered repotting this before the show as this container has two hairline cracks. However, they are not visible from the front and I really like this pot. The alternative pot I have has no patina. So it will stay in this pot.

I'm also showing the cedar in my avatar, but I don't think I have a thread on that here.

Cheers

 

[MACH5]

Yes, this is the larch:

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/chuhin-tamarack-from-this-spring.23712/

Title is a bit of a gaff, the tree is actually a kifu. Hard size to show, it will get lost in Rochester. To help with that, I had a taller stand made.

I do remember the last minute repot. That definitely paid off!

I actually considered repotting this before the show as this container has two hairline cracks. However, they are not visible from the front and I really like this pot. The alternative pot I have has no patina. So it will stay in this pot.

I'm also showing the cedar in my avatar, but I don't think I have a thread on that here.

Cheers

I miss that thread. Great work on that larch! Has anyone told you you're pretty good at this bonsai thing! And your thuja looks really fine as well. I saw it on a Canadian forum. Looking forward to seeing them both! Good thinking on the taller stand. You need to compensate for those large, noisy and showy trees that will no doubt make their grand entrance at the show!

 

[JudyB]

It bounced back, but didn't fill in as evenly as I would have liked.

Be very cautious with your larch now. I defoliated, and got good new growth, and showed it. 2 days in a dry room really took a toll on the tree.

 

[Steve Kudela]

Hopefully I'm not stirring the defoliation pot with this post. I've been about bonsai for almost 35 years( not that I'm implying that I'm superior in my knowledge, I'm not) and have known about the defoliation techniques since I started the adventure. I've used the technique once in that time, probably 25 years or more ago. Regardless of what the books and other folks say, I'll never purposely do it again. It almost killed my tree. Blessedly enough, it did make through the rest of the season and winter and is still alive today, although it's in very bad condition due to herbicide drift last year. I discovered that certain types of maples just don't like it. Red leaved and dwarf cultivars in specific. Once my buddy Duane and I spent an entire morning removing what seemed like 10000 leaves from and old kiyohime. It did indeed resprout, maybe a third of the tree. only the lower branches. The rest of the thing died, an awful mess. Not long after this experience, I read somewhere that certain ones just aren't going to tolerate it. I completely understand that it does work for some things and that it's a commonly used technique, but for me, it's not worth it. I'm not concerned at all about leaf size or extra ramification,(I don't show trees), I'll let time take care of that. I will cut leaves in half but never completely defoliate. I understand about refreshing leaves for a late season show, but if it doesn't resprout , is it worth it? I promise you that I'm not picking on anyone, especially not Mach5,( in my opinion he's the king of Japanese maple in this country past Valavanis), it's just an observation that I've made over a long period of time. If memory serves correctly, there was someone on this board that wanted to defoliate seedlings several years old......absolutely no need for it. Again, Im not picking on anyone, please forgive me if I've ruffled any feathers. Mach5, I truly hope that your maple will survive and resprout next spring, as it is one killer maple. Blessings................SK

 

[Steve Kudela]

Hopefully I'm not stirring the defoliation pot with this post. I've been about bonsai for almost 35 years( not that I'm implying that I'm superior in my knowledge, I'm not) and have known about the defoliation techniques since I started the adventure. I've used the technique once in that time, probably 25 years or more ago. Regardless of what the books and other folks say, I'll never purposely do it again. It almost killed my tree. Blessedly enough, it did make through the rest of the season and winter and is still alive today, although it's in very bad condition due to herbicide drift last year. I discovered that certain types of maples just don't like it. Red leaved and dwarf cultivars in specific. Once my buddy Duane and I spent an entire morning removing what seemed like 10000 leaves from and old kiyohime. It did indeed resprout, maybe a third of the tree. only the lower branches. The rest of the thing died, an awful mess. Not long after this experience, I read somewhere that certain ones just aren't going to tolerate it. I completely understand that it does work for some things and that it's a commonly used technique, but for me, it's not worth it. I'm not concerned at all about leaf size or extra ramification,(I don't show trees), I'll let time take care of that. I will cut leaves in half but never completely defoliate. I understand about refreshing leaves for a late season show, but if it doesn't resprout , is it worth it? I promise you that I'm not picking on anyone, especially not Mach5,( in my opinion he's the king of Japanese maple in this country past Valavanis), it's just an observation that I've made over a long period of time. If memory serves correctly, there was someone on this board that wanted to defoliate seedlings several years old......absolutely no need for it. Again, Im not picking on anyone, please forgive me if I've ruffled any feathers. Mach5, I truly hope that your maple will survive and resprout next spring, as it is one killer maple. Blessings................SK

Dissectums don't like it either

 

[MACH5]

Hopefully I'm not stirring the defoliation pot with this post. I've been about bonsai for almost 35 years( not that I'm implying that I'm superior in my knowledge, I'm not) and have known about the defoliation techniques since I started the adventure. I've used the technique once in that time, probably 25 years or more ago. Regardless of what the books and other folks say, I'll never purposely do it again. It almost killed my tree. Blessedly enough, it did make through the rest of the season and winter and is still alive today, although it's in very bad condition due to herbicide drift last year. I discovered that certain types of maples just don't like it. Red leaved and dwarf cultivars in specific. Once my buddy Duane and I spent an entire morning removing what seemed like 10000 leaves from and old kiyohime. It did indeed resprout, maybe a third of the tree. only the lower branches. The rest of the thing died, an awful mess. Not long after this experience, I read somewhere that certain ones just aren't going to tolerate it. I completely understand that it does work for some things and that it's a commonly used technique, but for me, it's not worth it. I'm not concerned at all about leaf size or extra ramification,(I don't show trees), I'll let time take care of that. I will cut leaves in half but never completely defoliate. I understand about refreshing leaves for a late season show, but if it doesn't resprout , is it worth it? I promise you that I'm not picking on anyone, especially not Mach5,( in my opinion he's the king of Japanese maple in this country past Valavanis), it's just an observation that I've made over a long period of time. If memory serves correctly, there was someone on this board that wanted to defoliate seedlings several years old......absolutely no need for it. Again, Im not picking on anyone, please forgive me if I've ruffled any feathers. Mach5, I truly hope that your maple will survive and resprout next spring, as it is one killer maple. Blessings................SK

Steve, thank you and no worries at all. You are not offending me or anyone here and sorry to hear about your maple. You are absolutely right and I agree. One should NEVER defoliate red Japanese maple varieties, those in the yatsubusa group and dissectums as you pointed out. They are too weak and I do not advocate for the defoliation of said varieties.

I believe defoliation is effective but only used carefully and only in strong and healthy trees and of course done at the appropriate times. I also realize this is not for all and in fact many professionals nowadays will tell you to avoid it.

With that said, I have defoliated the maple in question on and off for many, many years with no issues. To be sure, I do believe the issue came from, not the tree being too weak, but rather from leaving too much on it. In many cases, to your point, failure by defoliation typically comes from either applying the technique to weak varieties, or trees that are not healthy and strong enough.

Regardless, all good food for thought!

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Thanks for showing us the results. There is a thin line between defoliating and thinning foliage i guess.

 

[sorce]

killer

defoliation

Now you know I'm also not saying I'm superior either.....
But Bjorn says they never fully defoliate a maple. Partial, fold and cut, but not full.

Maybe this is why!

Anyway, @MACH5 , everything happens for a reason.
Someone was Probly gonna drop this maple, crack the pot, or something worse.

F it! Sunny Side!

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

Sad to hear...

However, going with Sorce on the bright side, at least we can all learn from your mistake and now think twice about defoliation. That is, afterall, what the forum is all about!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bjorn says they never fully defoliate a maple. Partial, fold and cut, but not full.

Different technique for a different intended outcome. Partial defoliation is to get sun and air to the interior of a dense crown to ensure buds are developing for use later. This procedure doesn't prompt more growth in the same season...and certainly won't result in something you'd want to show in the same season!

Serg did (or should have done) a full defoliation to obtain a completely new set of leaves, fresh for the show.

 

[TomB]

Serg did (or should have done) a full defoliation to obtain a completely new set of leaves, fresh for the show.

This chimes with something I've been thinking when reading this thread. When I've partially defoliated Japanese maples in the past, by the end of the season I've ended up with some leaves that were relatively fresh and in good condition. They looked much better than the original older leaves beside them, that were more tatty and tired looking. A full defoliation should result in a uniform crop of leaves that would all look good for the show. Assuming they all grow back, of course!