JBP candle growth aborting

[pitchpine]

JBP candle growth aborting (or stalling)

Hi all,

I got this JBP from New England Bonsai in March, Hitoshi said it came in from California this year, so might take some time to acclimate. I repotted in early May into a mostly pumice mixture and it started putting out huge candles---in the first picture below, the taller branches are all new growth from the cut needles up. The second pic is right when I got it--, unfortunately, I somehow deleted the full frame shot, but you can see how much new growth it put on generally.

However, those big candles have developed quite oddly, almost like two distinct sets of growth. The lower half of each candle opened up, but the needles didn't get very long in comparison to last year's. The top halves have hardly opened at all. The top needles still seem a bit soft, whereas the lower portions have hardened off.

It's been in full sun for 6+ hrs a day, and I've kept a close eye on the watering so that it dries out a good bit in between, but never gets totally dry. I fertilized it with Green Dream on top of the soil.

The one real x factor was when I was out of town for the second & third weeks of June, and I had a neighbor taking care of all my plants. (He was going off a Google spreadsheet that I updated based on the weather forecast). All my other trees, including one other jpb, 2 JRP, 2 pondys, and 3 pitch pine, did fabulously under his care and have put out normal new growth.

I've searched previous threads pretty thoroughly, but I haven't found anything really comparable. Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on here? Overwatering? Underwatering? Too much sun??

I figure I just need to wait & see, but if anyone has any experience with a situation like this, or suggestions as to how to treat the tree going forward, it would be much appreciated!

Best,
Laura

 

[Dav4]

Is that the Boston Globe? Man, I miss the Sunday sports section. I have no idea what's going on with your tree, but would say that your mix, in a colander, probably dries out quickly and I would not want it to get too dry. Fwiw, the color of the needles appears to be quite healthy. If you don't get any reasonable answers here, take it back to NEBG and have Hitoshi or John R. take a look at it and give their opinion...I imagine the summer sell down sale ha been going on for a bit, so now you have two excuses to take a trip to Bellingham. Good luck.

 

[ezrawillow]

hi

hi,
ive worked at a big nursery for several years. ive seen this on some of the large pines we have there. i notice it more on ponderosa, jeffery and austrian pines. in your post you said the bottom needles opened up fine but the ones on the top didnt and stayed kind of small. do you mean the needles on the bottome of the tree were the good ones and the ones on the needles on the top of the tree were wonky cuz thats what it looks like in the pic? or did i miss understand and you meant the needles on the top of the candles? just trying to make sure im understanding you. ive never thought to ask my boss who is a horticulturalist why they do that and he's never had me treat the trees for it but i do know that most of our trees tend to get a bit underwatered because we are in such a hot arid climate. usually if they are candling weird or slowly its because they need a little more water. ive also seen where the needles littereally start to get bends and tight curls in them and that is caused by aphids even tho ive never seen the aphids on the tree so it may be aphids causing damage before it candles. but when in doubt, take it to have it checked out by a pro, even if you just take it to a local garden center and have them look at it they are nearly always willing to help identify a problem and id recomend it just to be on the safe side and so you dont treat your tree for something that isnt wrong. hope that helps some

naomi
the mad scientist gardener

 

[Adair M]

Here's what I think is happening:

It's not unusual (well, it is unusual, but it happens enough that we can say, "oh, that happens sometimes") to get two flushes of growth. The candle extends, stops extending, starts producing needles, sets a terminal bud, and THEN the new bud pushes out a new candle!

Is there a "neck" between the topmost growth and the bottom candle? A second flush.

It happens with really strong trees.

I suspect it's a reaction to the fertilizer. If the tree hadn't had much fertilizer, and then suddenly it got some, it popped new growth. Same if all of a sudden it found all this nice fresh pumice to grow roots into. WHAM! Growth!

 

[iant]

I wouldn't be too worried. I have some big candles on one of my healthier JBPs where the very top of the larger candles had shorter needles and looked a little closed well into summer this year. It's now fully opened up but for a while I was starting to wonder why the top was so slow. I agree with what's been said and think the color looks good. I would expect the candles to finish opening.
Ian

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi all,

I got this JBP from New England Bonsai in March, Hitoshi said it came in from California this year, so might take some time to acclimate. I repotted in early May into a mostly pumice mixture and it started putting out huge candles---in the first picture below, the taller branches are all new growth from the cut needles up. The second pic is right when I got it--, unfortunately, I somehow deleted the full frame shot, but you can see how much new growth it put on generally.

However, those big candles have developed quite oddly, almost like two distinct sets of growth. The lower half of each candle opened up, but the needles didn't get very long in comparison to last year's. The top halves have hardly opened at all. The top needles still seem a bit soft, whereas the lower portions have hardened off.

It's been in full sun for 6+ hrs a day, and I've kept a close eye on the watering so that it dries out a good bit in between, but never gets totally dry. I fertilized it with Green Dream on top of the soil.

The one real x factor was when I was out of town for the second & third weeks of June, and I had a neighbor taking care of all my plants. (He was going off a Google spreadsheet that I updated based on the weather forecast). All my other trees, including one other jpb, 2 JRP, 2 pondys, and 3 pitch pine, did fabulously under his care and have put out normal new growth.

I've searched previous threads pretty thoroughly, but I haven't found anything really comparable. Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on here? Overwatering? Underwatering? Too much sun??

I figure I just need to wait & see, but if anyone has any experience with a situation like this, or suggestions as to how to treat the tree going forward, it would be much appreciated!

Best,
Laura

It looks like the kind of damage saw fly larva inflict.

 

[pitchpine]

Dav4: I'm kind of afraid to go to NEB at this time of year, I have way more trees than I can handle now anyway, lol. I told myself that this little $49 JPB would be my last acquisition for quite a while, but then I just HAD to get a couple small pondys from Burlap Bonanza.

Naomi: Sorry, I know its a bit hard to tell, so I've annotated the image to call out this year's candles. Each circled area represents the candle that developed from May through June (in one spurt, I think). It's the difference between the growth on the top half of each candle vs the bottom half that puzzles me.

Adair: I suppose since I didn't take pictures before I went on vacation, I can't be 100% certain that a second extension didn't happen while I was away, but I really don't think that's the case. I'll have to take a close up pic of the area between the two sections of the candle, but it doesn't look like a second neck to me.

Ian: They really haven't moved much if at all in the last 3 weeks. Do you think there's still hope for them to do so?

Vance: There's no visible sign of insect damage to the needles, wouldn't that be the case with sawfly?

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it!

Laura

 

[Jason_mazzy]

I would cut off this years candles and get some back budding and new needles with short internodes. This way if u have and biters or mites you have bypassed their damage and successfully ramified.

 

[Vance Wood]

Dav4: I'm kind of afraid to go to NEB at this time of year, I have way more trees than I can handle now anyway, lol. I told myself that this little $49 JPB would be my last acquisition for quite a while, but then I just HAD to get a couple small pondys from Burlap Bonanza.

Naomi: Sorry, I know its a bit hard to tell, so I've annotated the image to call out this year's candles. Each circled area represents the candle that developed from May through June (in one spurt, I think). It's the difference between the growth on the top half of each candle vs the bottom half that puzzles me.

Adair: I suppose since I didn't take pictures before I went on vacation, I can't be 100% certain that a second extension didn't happen while I was away, but I really don't think that's the case. I'll have to take a close up pic of the area between the two sections of the candle, but it doesn't look like a second neck to me.

Ian: They really haven't moved much if at all in the last 3 weeks. Do you think there's still hope for them to do so?

Vance: There's no visible sign of insect damage to the needles, wouldn't that be the case with sawfly?

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it!

Laura

They stirp off the needles and are very adept at hiding from you. I don't see them but they may be there.

 

[pitchpine]

As far as I can see, the needles are all there, just some of them never developed. They're still inside the fascicle.

They stirp off the needles and are very adept at hiding from you. I don't see them but they may be there.

 

[Adair M]

Let's change the discussion. The tree appears healthy.

What are the plans for the tree?

Do you want to grow it out big?

Or begin ramification?

 

[iant]

I like Adair's question. What are your plans?
As a side note I've had (and still have) sawflies chewing at my JBP needles. They suck. I've never seen the larvae but you can see the adults. They come in like little helicopters at twilight and the first 2 hours of evening and then land on your pines and start chewing. They really are like a saw and will shear off needles like nothing. In my experience, however, the adults will leave the needles hanging after they chew the pedicle. So in the morning you'll wonder why several needles are hanging vertical looking like they want to fall off. Maybe the larvae get it more at the base but with the adults chewing I usually see a stump.
Ian

 

[pitchpine]

When I brought it up to the register, Hitoshi said (after warning me that since it was fresh from CA I'd need to make sure it didn't get too cold for the rest of the winter) that I really needed to have a firm idea of my design for the tree in mind. It had caught my eye initially as a good candidate for a small cascade, but upon reflection I later decided that was probably too ambitious for a pine beginner like me.

I do know it will be a shohin. My goal right now, aside from just plain keeping it alive, is to let it bulk up through escape branches, while sustaining the lower growth for potential future primary branches and/or leaders.

My problem is that with the structure I have now, there are basically two equal diameter competing leaders, with almost a 90 degree angle between them. So I feel pressure to pick between the two potential trunk lines before they get too big and an ugly scar becomes inevitable. But then, keeping both going seems like my only way to build taper in the lowest section of the trunk.


Comments and/or suggestions most welcome!

Laura

Let's change the discussion. The tree appears healthy.

What are the plans for the tree?

Do you want to grow it out big?

Or begin ramification?

 

[Eric Group]

Pitch pine, the tree is clearly a goner... DOA. You should carefully pack it up and mail it to me here in SC so I can give it a proper burial. I will PM you my address!

JK of course- it looks pretty healthy to me! Nice, green hue to the needles that did extend... I suspect this is a temporary reaction either to ferts like Adair mentioned, or could be a tree reacting to the change in habitat. Maybe scale back the N a little next year, and after a season to a climate to your environment it might even out a bit for you.

 

[Adair M]

Sacrifice branches, don't touch. Let them run. Don't worry about scars, there's ways to deal with that.

Shohin, you say? Have you picked out any "Keeper" branches? If so, decandle them! You need to start ramification of the keeper branches while you let the sacrifice branches run.

 

[pitchpine]

Hi Adair,

You think it's ok to candle prune even though the tree was repotted this spring? I thought that could put too much stress on it.

And if I do candle prune, should I cut the candles on all the non-sacrifice branches, or just the ones I'm certain are keepers?

Thank you!

Laura

Sacrifice branches, don't touch. Let them run. Don't worry about scars, there's ways to deal with that.

Shohin, you say? Have you picked out any "Keeper" branches? If so, decandle them! You need to start ramification of the keeper branches while you let the sacrifice branches run.

 

[Jason_mazzy]

there are two schools of thought here.

1: candle prune everything so the tree has no particularly stronger area that may cause weak areas to abort.

and

2: keep your sacrifice growth strong so it will speed up your process and only prune your determined working branches.

In this case for this year I would go with option one as it seems to me that your lower branches are quite weak and the tree may not push a heavy growth to them and may just cut them off (plus it will fix the possible infestation on the top candles).

 

[kite-eating bonsai tree]

Iant,

i will respectfully comment that the insect pic you posted looks more like a may beetle (Phyllophaga sp.) rather than a sawfly (Diprion sp.). i have attached comparison pics.


rds,
rick

 

[Adair M]

I have a tree which has sacrifice branches I'm letting run, as well as lower branches I'm ramming out. I decandled the lower branches, and new buds are forming just fine.

It's getting late to decandle in Mass. If you're going to do it, do it now!

 

[Jason_mazzy]

Adair,

Was the lower growth this weak? Did u have upper bud infestation?