JBP Pre-Bonsai Potential

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@CrisisM0de
You have gotten a lot of advice, some conflicting, but some has been excellent. Ignore the "Debbie Downer" advice, this tree is not that bad. It is not ready right now for any "bonsai techniques" it still needs to be grown out, or up to become "Pre-bonsai". But honestly, you can make this into something with reasonable potential in less than 6 years. Right now, your job is to read about Japanese Black pines, one good resource is Jonas Dupuich's blog, Bonsai Tonight.

Bonsai Tonight

Learn new techniques and see trees from around the world with bonsai teacher and writer Jonas Dupuich.

bonsaitonight.com

In the Resources section of Bonsai Nut there is this articles with links to all the Jonas Dupuich articles,

Bonsai Tonight Japanese Red & Black Pines Links

Bonsai Tonight is probably one of the best resources out there on the care and training of Japanese black and red pines. It is usually one of the first references listed when someone has questions about pines. I decided, as much for myself as...

www.bonsainut.com

Plan on repotting your Japanese Black pine in spring into a larger pot or nursery container, to get it growing vigorously. In order to get it growing, don't do any major pruning now, and don't do any pruning for at least 6 months after repotting. You can try wiring. But mostly for the JBP spend the time catching up on your reading.

When you repot, you want to use a largely inert, inorganic media, or an inorganic media with some Akadama mixed in. The reason is pines do not like to be repotted very often, usually we try to repot them no more than once every 3 to 5 years. So when you repot, you want the media to last in good shape for at least 3 years. This way you can get some good growth during the years you have not disturbed the roots

Wintering your JBP. Because you just received it, it may or may not have time to fully acclimate to your Grand Rapids winter. JBP are marginally hardy in Grand Rapids. They will survive when planted in the ground for upwards of 5 years or more, then a cold snap will come and kill them dead. You should plan on protecting your JBP in winter, every year.

Hope this helps. Like I said, really except maybe wiring don't do much now. Let it get used to living in Grand Rapids. Get a feel for its care and growth habits. Do plan on repotting in spring. Read up over winter and you will be ready to dive in.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I kind of feel like it is not as it was described on the site I purchased from.

Typical online rip off. Certain seller on ebay says "big fat trunk" for trees size of pencil . Be aware and get actual facts before online buy.

 

[leatherback]

Typical online rip off. Certain seller on ebay says "big fat trunk" for trees size of pencil . Be aware and get actual facts before online buy.

How do you know what this was described as, and what was paid for?

Sorry, but I dislike these sort of posts. If you buy trees online, it is up to the buyer to look into what is being bought, through clear pictures. If the tree is as depicted online, there is no "online rip-off".

 

[CrisisM0de]

@Leo in N E Illinois thank you for your advice... I am going to plan to do the repot in spring as others have also suggested, interested to see if the roots have anything going on at all. I also want to dig more thoroughly through Bonsai Tonight, so far its been an excellent resource. In the mean time I may get a handful of 2 year seedlings. I only wanted to wire this tree to bend the trunk more at the base and perhaps bring the low branch around in a curve while its young and easy to wire. But more importantly to bend the trunk as much as I can.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Were this mine, and in your situation, I would plan on using the lowest branch as the future tree. You can work that part of the tree, slowly developing ramification and structure. The top you keep. You let it run tall. This is just a sacrifice which in 3-5 years you will cut off. This spring you repot to get the plant in better substrate & bring the nebari towards the surface.

This is a starter plant. This means you have a bunch of growing to do. but that is what bonsai is about too!

Wiring the tree and working with the branches you have now will in the long run irritate you probably: The trunk is too thin to give a realistic feel of a tree. Naturally, you can develop a tree from the current branches and also let a sacrifice run to increase girth. I am afraid that the branches are too far apart to look good on the long run.

This is going to be my plan as you and @Potawatomi have suggested. I do think wiring the whole thing out could be cause for some aggravation and it sounds like it would mostly be a waste of time... I did hope that I could wire and bend the trunk more towards that low branch and then perhaps the low branch will eventually curve around... not sure if it is even possible to bend the trunk that low with how thick it is.

 

[Adair M]

Something to think about:

trees with curvy trunks usually don’t start growing straight up out of the soil. They start off growing at an angle. Then, they curve.

what I’m telling you is when you wire and bend that trunk, start off by slanting the entire tree, pot and all. Place it at maybe a 45 degree angle, and wire it. Angle it so that the first branch will be on the outside of the curve when you make the bend.

By starting with the pot and root ball at an angle, half of the curve is done!

yes, you’ll need some fairly heavy wire. I recommend copper wire as aluminum just doesn’t hold as well, and you’ll get frustrated trying to get the curve to stay, which means you’ll over-bend it hoping that it “relaxes” where you want it to stay. With copper, bend it, and it should stay the first time. No frustration, and it’s easier on the tree.

 

[coh]

Something to think about:

trees with curvy trunks usually don’t start growing straight up out of the soil. They start off growing at an angle. Then, they curve.

what I’m telling you is when you wire and bend that trunk, start off by slanting the entire tree, pot and all. Place it at maybe a 45 degree angle, and wire it. Angle it so that the first branch will be on the outside of the curve when you make the bend.

By starting with the pot and root ball at an angle, half of the curve is done!

yes, you’ll need some fairly heavy wire. I recommend copper wire as aluminum just doesn’t hold as well, and you’ll get frustrated trying to get the curve to stay, which means you’ll over-bend it hoping that it “relaxes” where you want it to stay. With copper, bend it, and it should stay the first time. No frustration, and it’s easier on the tree.

Actually, this would be a really good tree on which to practice using heavy copper. There aren't many obstacles, it'll go on pretty easy.

 

[roberthu]

Put that little guy in a sunny spot in the ground and forget about for 3 years then cut it back and forget about it for another 2 years. You should have something that worth digging at that point.

 

[CrisisM0de]

Something to think about:

trees with curvy trunks usually don’t start growing straight up out of the soil. They start off growing at an angle. Then, they curve.

what I’m telling you is when you wire and bend that trunk, start off by slanting the entire tree, pot and all. Place it at maybe a 45 degree angle, and wire it. Angle it so that the first branch will be on the outside of the curve when you make the bend.

By starting with the pot and root ball at an angle, half of the curve is done!

yes, you’ll need some fairly heavy wire. I recommend copper wire as aluminum just doesn’t hold as well, and you’ll get frustrated trying to get the curve to stay, which means you’ll over-bend it hoping that it “relaxes” where you want it to stay. With copper, bend it, and it should stay the first time. No frustration, and it’s easier on the tree.

I like the idea of tilting the pot, I have seen that before, will do!

To be clear you are saying to tip and wire it like the green drawing, NOT the orange drawing (which is what I thought I would have done) My first instinct was orange because the cut would be in the back of the tree with the branch curving up and toward the front. Just trying to understand, thank you!

 

[Adair M]

Something like this;

 

[Adair M]

Then, in spring, repot it so that it’s at that angle in the new pot.

 

[Potawatomi13]

How do you know what this was described as, and what was paid for?

Sorry, but I dislike these sort of posts. If you buy trees online, it is up to the buyer to look into what is being bought, through clear pictures. If the tree is as depicted online, there is no "online rip-off".

Actually Big fat trunk means Big fat trunk! NOT pencil sized one! It was example of not as advertised. Personally despise FALSE advertising! Any price for preceding false advert is rip off.

 

[leatherback]

Actually Big fat trunk means Big fat trunk! NOT pencil sized one! It was example of not as advertised

WHERE do you see how it was advertised? The OP has NOT shared this information. So You Do Not Know how it was advertised

 

[AnacortesSteve]

All good advise, why I have 300 trees, I used to just keep buying new ones to style but now I have so much maintenance that urge goes away and I can let my JBP & JRP grow from seed and just keep maintaining, watering and feeding them and working on cuttings.
Don't give up just get more trees and let this little guy grow.

 

[CrisisM0de]

All good advise, why I have 300 trees, I used to just keep buying new ones to style but now I have so much maintenance that urge goes away and I can let my JBP & JRP grow from seed and just keep maintaining, watering and feeding them and working on cuttings.
Don't give up just get more trees and let this little guy grow.

I see this in my near future. My fiance will be sooo happy I am also going to start looking for red pines, they seem hard to find

 

[JesusFreak]

My reply is to encourage you bc I have a tree that’s way worse off..see below... but would this tree be a literati prospect. That’s what I’m considering with my piece of junk.

 

[CrisisM0de]

My reply is to encourage you bc I have a tree that’s way worse off..see below... but would this tree be a literati prospect. That’s what I’m considering with my piece of junk.

You sir, I believe, are in a significantly better position with that tree. Don't know what the roots look like but you can bend probably bend that thing in knots, I think there might be a ton of potential there, but... I'm new!

 

[Adair M]

My reply is to encourage you bc I have a tree that’s way worse off..see below... but would this tree be a literati prospect. That’s what I’m considering with my piece of junk. View attachment 325348

Literati? In maybe 30 years!

Literati is more than just a skinny trunk. It’s supposed to depict an old tree. Not just “old”, but an “elderly, wise, and experienced” tree. One that has weathered storms, floods, winds, drought... all these things give trees character. It takes years for trees to develop “character”. As in decades of years.

 

[JesusFreak]

I understand that about literati. It’s my favorite style of tree. And I was seeing my tree as one without low branches and with not many buds. Much differently than @CrisisM0de JBP

 

[River's Edge]

I understand that about literati. It’s my favorite style of tree. And I was seeing my tree as one without low branches and with not many buds. Much differently than @CrisisM0de JBP

What should be considered is the opportunities available with a plant that young to develop almost any direction with the proper techniques. Trees do not usually just appear with branches in the right locations. That is what Bonsai is all about. I think the main point is being missed.
Things take time. And things change over time, largely on the basis of our interventions. Both of these young tree could be almost any design in the future with the proper care and development techniques applied.
Both are young enough to be wired and movement introduced, both are young enough to develop proper root systems and so on and so on.
The owner simply needs to learn the proper techniques and apply them to the beginning material.
Lower branching can appear with the proper timing and cut back of sacrifice leaders and branches.
Simply put, it is very difficult to expect too much more for the age of material you are presenting as supposedly pre-bonsai.