JBP Seedlings - Candle or not

FrankP999

Shohin
Messages
462
Reaction score
46
Location
Macon, Georgia U.S.A.
USDA Zone
8
I have some 1 1/2 year old JBP Mikawa seedlings I bought from Matt O. at http://www.kaedebonsai.com. Some have put out a bud/"branch" and others are just the main trunk without any buds/branches. They are about 6 inches tall.

1. Should I pinch them now to cause additional branching to start?

2. One has 4 "branches" - should I eliminate some of these to prevent bar branch from developing further?

Thanks

Frank
 
Last edited:

ovation22

Mame
Messages
117
Reaction score
1
What you want now is growth, and lots of it. Decandling is a technique for finished trees to slow down growth and develop needs in scale with the trunk and branches. This is not what you need with seedlings. Don't concern yourself with needle length for several more years. Branches and backbudding will come in time with more growth.

Chris has some excellent articles on how to develop JBP from seedlings here and here.
 

waltr1

Yamadori
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Location
Doylestown, PA USA
USDA Zone
6a
Chris' articles are good and was my beginning on growing JBP seedlings.
After the second year my seedlings didn't have any lower branches so in late winter, going into the third year, I cut off last years shoots leaving needles below. They responded by popping buds all up and down the trunk. These lower branches will help produce a trunk with taper. This is the only reason I can see to cut the shoots.

Questions:
What is the best way to keep the lower branches under control so they are not over sized on the finial tree?
Or should they be allowed to grow and cut off then hope for back budding to produce the final branches?

walt r
 

ovation22

Mame
Messages
117
Reaction score
1
Well, it seems there are two things being discussed, pinching and decandling. These are two different techniques performed at different times of the year for different purposes. Pinching is done much earlier in the season to stop the extension of a candle. Decandling is used to force a second flush of buds, among other reasons.

While growing a central leader unrestrained this will retard the growth of lower buds/branches. However, depending on the desired finished size of the tree you'll want some girth on the branches.

There are some great articles in old Bonsai Today issues as well as the Pines book from Stone Lantern. And, it seems Brent is doing some good video work. Check out his first (in a series?) here. Note the scars that occur after removal of the sacrifice branches and leaders. Growth/branches can be replaced with new buds or with grafting.
 
Messages
177
Reaction score
12
The key to cultivating JBP with a nice bases is to first establish low sacrifice branches. At around year one, the sapling will still have needles very low on the trunk and at that time you can literally cut the top of the tree off and it will bud back aggressively (if it's healthy). If the tree is older, you can't cut the top off without killing it, so timing is crucial.

Allow several low sacrifice branches and one leader branch at the top to grow unchecked. If possible, put the tree in the ground with a flat stone under it to achieve maximum root flare and growth. Every year, I candle prune the branches I want to keep and allow the sacrifice branches to grow freely. When the tree is the desired size, cut the sacrifice branches and allow them to heal - a healthy JBP will close the wounds in a couple of years.

Dig up the trees around February (just before spring) and start the JBP in a training pot and eventually a bonsai pot where you can sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

If you can, send pics of your trees.

Juniperus Californica
 

FrankP999

Shohin
Messages
462
Reaction score
46
Location
Macon, Georgia U.S.A.
USDA Zone
8
Here is a photo of 4 of my JBP seedlings.

Frank
 

Attachments

  • Mikawa_Seedlings_July.jpg
    Mikawa_Seedlings_July.jpg
    70.6 KB · Views: 127

waltr1

Yamadori
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Location
Doylestown, PA USA
USDA Zone
6a
Great links John, I have heard that Brent and Bob made some JBP videos but hadn't seen them yet (I'll watch them in detail tonight).
Thanks for clarifying my questions Juniperus. In all the books, including Naka's and Stone Lantern's these middle steps were always a unstated.
I can post a few pictures of my seedling pines if anyone is interested in what I have done and how they responded.

walt r
 
Messages
177
Reaction score
12
Frank,

The first and third Mikawa you could get away with cutting the tops off to get the trees to sprout side branches. The second and fourth, you can wire a tight cork screw type bends (only one turn) very close to the soil surface to give the trees movement. That way you can see which method works best for you.

I love Mikawa pines, I'll take some pics of mine and post them.

Juniperus Californica
 

yenling83

Chumono
Messages
926
Reaction score
1,019
Location
Nipomo, CA
Well, it seems there are two things being discussed, pinching and decandling. These are two different techniques performed at different times of the year for different purposes. Pinching is done much earlier in the season to stop the extension of a candle. Decandling is used to force a second flush of buds, among other reasons.

While growing a central leader unrestrained this will retard the growth of lower buds/branches. However, depending on the desired finished size of the tree you'll want some girth on the branches.

There are some great articles in old Bonsai Today issues as well as the Pines book from Stone Lantern. And, it seems Brent is doing some good video work. Check out his first (in a series?) here. Note the scars that occur after removal of the sacrifice branches and leaders. Growth/branches can be replaced with new buds or with grafting.

Hey Ovation22

Do you have any pics of your seed grown pines? Also do you find that there is alot of reverse taper in the first few years after taking the wire off?
 

ovation22

Mame
Messages
117
Reaction score
1
Yenling,

I've got some 1, 2, 3, and 4 year old seedlings that I'll try to get some pictures of in the next day or so. There's a couple of different methods that you can use with great success to get shohin, kifu, chuhin, and ogata sized trees. It just depends on what you're going for.

With seedlings you might see some reverse taper after the wire is removed but it will quickly outgrow that, especially if you plant in a colander or similar. I've got one in particular that the base quadrupled in size in the last year with the help of lots of feeder roots.

Here's one that was started in the same way I described. The tree is about 12 years old. I picked it up at a workshop (first picture) and have been working on it for about 3 years. Second picture is of the tree in March of last year before wiring, and the third after wiring. If you look closely you can see where 2 of the major cuts were made in 2006, they've just about healed. The tree was repotted this year with the new front (and the nasty root removed).
 

Attachments

  • jbp.jpg
    jbp.jpg
    64.9 KB · Views: 89
  • jbp1.jpg
    jbp1.jpg
    43.3 KB · Views: 80
  • jbp2.jpeg
    jbp2.jpeg
    50 KB · Views: 88
Last edited:

painter

Mame
Messages
212
Reaction score
12
Location
central jersey
USDA Zone
6
waltr1
id like to see what you ve done and got going. im learning all i can about pines bfore i purchase a bunch come spring
thanks.
p
 

waltr1

Yamadori
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Location
Doylestown, PA USA
USDA Zone
6a
Ok, here are some of the seedlings I have. I don't claim this is the best way to develop them just what I did and how they responded. Any comments and suggestions are welcome.
The first two year old seedlings from Brent at Evergreen Garden works as I received them.
The second are from seed and are two years old in 5inch pond baskets. In the back ground are Brent's pines with wire on the trunks and the tops cut. Notice the tops have three shoots.
Third is one of Brent's with lots of trunk bend. There are two very small buds on the back side of the trunk (one is just visible between the two needles that point at you).
Fourth is one of the seedlings two years after the top was cut. The original top is dieing back and the three top shoots have lengthened. There are now a few shoots lower on the trunk.

My wife is out with the camera. I'll take some new picture in the next few days and post them.
Hope everyone enjoyed the pics.

walt r
 

Attachments

  • 2004nov21 007 (Small).jpg
    2004nov21 007 (Small).jpg
    59.6 KB · Views: 72
  • 2006aug17 008.jpg
    2006aug17 008.jpg
    98.7 KB · Views: 79
  • 2008Apr26 013 (sm_crop).jpg
    2008Apr26 013 (sm_crop).jpg
    53.2 KB · Views: 72
  • 2008May5 013 (Medium).jpg
    2008May5 013 (Medium).jpg
    67.4 KB · Views: 78

painter

Mame
Messages
212
Reaction score
12
Location
central jersey
USDA Zone
6
thanks waltr.
how do you or how are you going to avoid the bulge(reverse taper ) which is going to happen in the last pic where the two buds are on opposite sides close to one and other.
will you rub a bud off?
chop? or
worry later?
p
 

waltr1

Yamadori
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Location
Doylestown, PA USA
USDA Zone
6a
Worry later...???
Now that it has been pointed out I'll probably let both grow for a few years then remove one and let the other continue growing.
Or one this these may become the future trunk.
 

bonhe

Masterpiece
Messages
3,887
Reaction score
7,742
Location
Riverside, CA
USDA Zone
11
Let me join into this interesting thread. This is one of my 2 years old Korean black pine. As you can see, I started to wire them up since they were one year old to get the trunk movement. I let the wire cut into the trunk quite a bit, then wire was removed last week. To avoid the bulging in the trunk later on, I removed all of branches but 2 left (leader and one branch). Some of them already showed the 2nd burst in this year!
To make a nice material for bonsai, my teacher told me that I should concentrate on the root and the trunk, then the branches and finally needles. It means I should care for the root (using colander) and let the branches go uncheck (but still pay attention to the bar branches to avoid the bulging) to exaggerated trunk girth; then in the late stage, will make graftings on those selected branches to get good branch proportion (the branches will be quite small in proportion to the trunk girth), and finally to the candle care. Bonhe
 

Attachments

  • DSC_1152.jpg
    DSC_1152.jpg
    101 KB · Views: 57
  • DSC_1155.jpg
    DSC_1155.jpg
    96.5 KB · Views: 56

Bill S

Masterpiece
Messages
2,494
Reaction score
22
Location
Western Massachusetts
USDA Zone
5a
Quote from Juniprus Cal. "The key to cultivating JBP with a nice bases is to first establish low sacrifice branches"

Something I see as a flaw in the US, too much worry about scars so sac. branches aren't used as well as they should be. Great point JC.

with the pines it's a balancing act, you have to take care of both aspects, the sacrifice branches get us away from artistic phone poles, and keeping the "keeper" branches in check, so the don't grow too big.

There is away grafting if you need it, I believe grafting on the real killer trees happens more than you might think.
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom