Kiyohime?

tmmason10

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Hey all,

I picked up this forest planting for a unbelievable deal about a month ago and was unsure as to what cultivar it may be. I think it may be kiyohime but I am not sure. Are there any specific characteristics to help ID these trees? It was in rough shape when I bought it but I am nursing it back to health. I took a picture with it next to a regular acer palmatum seedling for reference.

While I am on it, thought's about whether I should separate these or keep them together? I think the small one and the middle one may get hacked back when they are healthy. Any other suggestions are fine.
 

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Smoke

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Looks like mountain maple to me. As big as the biggest one is, a Kiyohime would already have a tremendous flare at the soil line. That is one of the remarkable charicteristics of the cultivar. These exit the soil like a telephone pole.
 

discusmike

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Looks like acer palmatum,i dont believe its kiyohime because of its growth habits.The leaves are smaller because there in a small pot,i have reg. jap maples and the margin color can vary diffrent times of the year,doesnt mean its a cultivator,i have red jap maples some have five lobes some seven,but all sold as jap maple seedlings/
 

tmmason10

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These exit the soil like a telephone pole.
Agreed with you completely. Suggestions on how i should proceed on these? Maybe air layer the bigger one or two, I think I can chop the smaller one
 

rockm

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I would not air layer anything, as there's nothing really worth airlayering.

What I would do is to get the trees into a deeper growing container and new soil next spring. I'd wash all the current soil out of the root mass and look to see how the roots are healthwise. The soil looks kinda bad and the roots may have some issues. Removing the old soil and planting in new in a deeper container (but not too deep) might produce some vigorous growth...

The trunks here could produce a very nice forest planting in a relatively short amount of time--IF you put some time into branch re-development.
 

tmmason10

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I would not air layer anything, as there's nothing really worth airlayering.

What I would do is to get the trees into a deeper growing container and new soil next spring. I'd wash all the current soil out of the root mass and look to see how the roots are healthwise. The soil looks kinda bad and the roots may have some issues. Removing the old soil and planting in new in a deeper container (but not too deep) might produce some vigorous growth...

The trunks here could produce a very nice forest planting in a relatively short amount of time--IF you put some time into branch re-development.
Thanks, I like your advice. I think they are in dire need for a repot and they seem to be in some sort of muck.
 

tmmason10

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Played around with photoshop to try and visualize a plan. It's not great but gives me an idea of what is possible with the existing structure. Still might separate them, I think the smallest trunk would be a nice shohin possibly. The middle tree has some possibilities, but if separated the largest tree would probably be a goner.
 

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tmmason10

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I am thinking about maybe airlayering the tallest trunk, so I thought I'd post how it looks without it's leaves. Open to suggestions.

winter_storage_2.jpgjapanese_maple_air_layer.jpg
 

JudyB

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If it were my tree, I'd air layer both the left and the middle trunks. I like the left trunk being the main and taller trunk, and the middle one needs some more interest too. So I'd do both, and keep the left as the central tree. I like the angle that gives to a 3 group, at least this one. Then they can sort of mirror each other a bit on the curveing that you put into them as they grow. Like a Father,Mother,son idea...
Just my 2 cents.
 

tmmason10

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If it were my tree, I'd air layer both the left and the middle trunks. I like the left trunk being the main and taller trunk, and the middle one needs some more interest too. So I'd do both, and keep the left as the central tree. I like the angle that gives to a 3 group, at least this one. Then they can sort of mirror each other a bit on the curveing that you put into them as they grow. Like a Father,Mother,son idea...
Just my 2 cents.
So airlayer the left and middle trees? Makes sense, both are too tall and straight. And FYI my Keppler-inspired twisty shimp is next to it. Hope it fairs well this winter/growing season.
 

tmmason10

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I don't know why I didn't look up kiyohime before I asked the forum, as it is clearly not.

Anyways, took this to NEBGs and had a little repotting class and I really like the way it turned out. We used the same pot instead of opting for a deeper one. We also moved the smaller tree close to the larger ones and I think it make a nicer look. The plan is to let them get nice and healthy then start thinking about layering/chopping. Just starting to leaf out so apparently I have to bring it in and out of the house for the next few weeks as it may be getting frost-cold again.

forest_03.24.12.jpgforest_03.24.12_2.jpgforest_03.24.12_3.jpg
 

tmmason10

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Well, it worked. With repotting this year, as well as a new and better fertilizing routine, I got some buds to pop down low on each of the trunks. These should really help this forest out in time.


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JudyB

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Hooray, those buds make me happy to see them... This is good :)
 

tmmason10

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Thought I'd update with some pictures I took today. The buds have extended, and in my opinion the overall grouping is starting to look a little better. Still too tall, but with lower buds it makes air-layering a much more viable option.

japanese_maple_forest_08.11.2012_1.jpg

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tmmason10

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Quick iPhone shot of the trees waking up. I like when the leaves are at this stage.

image.jpg


Looks like pic is sideways, sorry in advance.
 

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Thanks for sharing Tom. Yes I love Japanese maples in the Spring... oh heck I like 'em ANY season!! I'm still waiting for mine to leaf out but it will be a few more weeks for me :rolleyes:

What are your plans for this grouping or leaving as is?

Hmmm... I just saw that you're from Boston and your leaves are out already?? Did you have it in a greenhouse?
 
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tmmason10

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Thanks for sharing Tom. Yes I love Japanese maples in the Spring... oh heck I like 'em ANY season!! I'm still waiting for mine to leaf out but it will be a few more weeks for me :rolleyes:

What are your plans for this grouping or leaving as is?

Hmmm... I just saw that you're from Boston and your leaves are out already?? Did you have it in a greenhouse?

Yes these trees were overwintered at NE bonsai and they starts leafing out in their cold greenhouse. I have to e careful with them now, maybe do the frost dance. This planting leafed very early last year as well which is strange.

I do not have a plan yet. The planting bothers me but I'm still in the observing stage. The small tree needs to get nice and healthy this year anyway. Do you have any ideals?
 

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Ah I see that makes sense! It is no big surprise because even without much protection, kiyohime are early risers. The two that I have are also by far the first to signal Spring is here even before it is really here :mad: I have being doing the same "frost dance" as you although my leaves are no where near out yet.


Sometimes is ok to just observe the tree. Then one day inspiration will strike and suddenly you'll have a clear plan of attack. A juniper that I had, it took me all of 16 years to finally get a clear idea of what I wanted to do with it.

As far as suggestions or comments on your grouping, I would say the relationship between all three trunks needs to be improved. I don't necessarily mind the height of the tallest tree but is too top heavy. So I would cut way back to hopefully induce budding lower in the trunk. Thread grafting could also be a very effective way for you to get branches exactly where you want them.
Ultimately you may need to reposition the trunks to also get better movement. It is always very tough to give suggestions without being right in front of the trees. Sometimes planting the whole thing in the ground and letting it do it's thing for a while may increase your design options in a few years time. Anyway I hope this helps any.
 

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