Las Vegas...

AlainK

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Now from the absurd to the ridiculous.

Whatever.

Maybe the people in the USA will one day evolve from a self-centered paranoid gun culture to a more mature form of democratic society.

And I hope China, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Poland, Turkey and other countries will evolve too.

So naive. See, I'm a real Christian atheist at heart ;)

 

Vance Wood

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And now we have finally cracked ourselves around to the original discussion of the Las Vega shooting; the machinations of an insane narcissistic sociopath who thinks it's OK to kill as many people as he can because he is better than everyone else, and his superiority makes it OK to do it.

Here have another.

DrDRG2016_edited-1 copy.jpg
 

63pmp

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Well I agree he was a nutjob, not sure they've worked out the motive. But aside from that, you can rest assured they are more like him out there, and it will happen again. And its been shown that if you dont arm them with semi automatic weapons then there will be less casualties when they do go nuts. And surely your governments would do better to legislate ways of finding and disarming these people then legislating against the personal freedoms of people who are using harmless sex toys.
 

Vance Wood

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Well I agree he was a nutjob, not sure they've worked out the motive. But aside from that, you can rest assured they are more like him out there, and it will happen again. And its been shown that if you dont arm them with semi automatic weapons then there will be less casualties when they do go nuts. And surely your governments would do better to legislate ways of finding and disarming these people then legislating against the personal freedoms of people who are using harmless sex toys.
I don't really care what people want to shove up their back sides just what they want to shove up mine. Trouble with trying to relegate this to making a law is trying to put out a forest fire by peeing on it. The best you can hope to do is make sure the honest and innocent people cannot get the weapons the evil and demented people can.

I still affirm the concept that we don't have a weapon problem but a moral problem.mugo_2973 copy 2.jpg
 

wrcmad

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Nope; I just want to see your trees, what's the problem with that? It's not a diversion it is a question I would like answered, this is after all a forum that is dedicated to the appreciation and cultivation of bonsai tree. We just at times have opinions about thing political events that tend to attract individuals that just want a good fight.
Here is one of mine. I showed you mine now let's see yours.

OK. I'll entertain your petty little distraction.
Here is one of my elms - almost there, I'd guess showable this time next year.
Sowed the seed myself in 1987 (just had it's 30th birthday).
Pot is 1st gen Yamaaki, 16.5 inches across.
Trunk base is 6 inches across.
Does this qualify me to be a part of your forum, "dedicated to the appreciation and cultivation of bonsai tree", and also the adoration of guns?

12Oct17.jpg
 

63pmp

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63mp said: If you live in a city, why do you need a gun?

I believe that Tribalism is the Dominating Social experience for all Mankind...
and it shows itself most prominently in Large cities where one Tribe is always trying to outdo the other...
and that is why we City Folk need Weapons (Guns),,, to fight off the other Tribes that are always trying to Subjugate us and force their Way of Life upon us......
Things must be really bad for you over there, though somehow I think you're talking it up. If you could measure tribalism it would be intrresting to see it ploted against violence. What makes one tribe more violent than another?

I tend to think, in democratic countries at least, that the witchdoctor is voted in by the people and reflects their wishes from fear of getting voted out. Tribalism leads to bad witchdoctors. So what is it that makes the tribesmen so violent?

Any chance of getting your enlightened ET freinds to talk with everybody.? That might changs the tribal situation.
 

wrcmad

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Well I agree he was a nutjob, not sure they've worked out the motive. But aside from that, you can rest assured they are more like him out there, and it will happen again. And its been shown that if you dont arm them with semi automatic weapons then there will be less casualties when they do go nuts. And surely your governments would do better to legislate ways of finding and disarming these people then legislating against the personal freedoms of people who are using harmless sex toys.
North Korean nutjob merely points big gun in direction of USA, and they want to nuke the whole place in WW3 to stop it happening again.
White yank nutjob takes out 60 of their own on home soil, and there is nothing they can do.
WTF?
 
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63pmp

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I don't really care what people want to shove up their back sides just what they want to shove up mine. Trouble with trying to relegate this to making a law is trying to put out a forest fire by peeing on it. The best you can hope to do is make sure the honest and innocent people cannot get the weapons the evil and demented people can.

I still affirm the concept that we don't have a weapon problem but a moral one.
I think its going to take a suite of laws. Which can be done, and has been done. Strange logic saying its too hard, lets just arm everyone; cause we know more guns means more deaths by guns, not less. Lets face it, moral, or societal change, takes generations, so that's not going to happen. The option is legislation, and sure that will be difficult, but its doable.

I hate to thought of as a troll, really what I'm trying to do is understand the white male, republican voter. That tribe of white men that voted for Trump and still think he's the best man for the job. I'm concerned because more then likely Trump is going to drag us into another war with Iran, and probably Nth Korea. And as allies well be dragged along into it like in Iraq and Afghanistan. So I just want to understand how these people think and why; and unfortunately these republican tribal folk have wrapped themselves up in some kind of godly righteousness, and guns, and white supremacy, and paranoia, and all kinds of crap that defies logic. And for some reason, lots of these people have bonsai! Go figure.

But really, this thread is worn out, so I'll say see ya later and go research elsewhere. Thanks for all the rational and logical responses (sarcasm), I really enjoyed the "I know what I know and don't have to enlighten myself" argument. Good one.
 

Bolero

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Things must be really bad for you over there, though somehow I think you're talking it up. If you could measure tribalism it would be intrresting to see it ploted against violence. What makes one tribe more violent than another?

I tend to think, in democratic countries at least, that the witchdoctor is voted in by the people and reflects their wishes from fear of getting voted out. Tribalism leads to bad witchdoctors. So what is it that makes the tribesmen so violent?

Any chance of getting your enlightened ET freinds to talk with everybody.? That might changs thus ually normale tribal situation.


Thanks for addressing my Post...
Tribes are generally broken down as to their behavior ie Hunter Gatherers or Warriors or Farmers...
Tribal violence is usually normal and expected...
A Tribes violent activity is Cultural and Generational...
The Witchdoctor is generally selected thru Tribal Elder's Favoritism...
A Tribesman's violence will be Culturally Socially motivated...
My Enlightened ET friends are very, very select as to whom they speak & socialize with...
It was many, many Earth years before my first encounter of the first kind...
I know, for a fact, they believe a Global Panic would occur if they exposed their presence here on Earth...
I appreciate your inquiring and curious nature and will answer any question you may have...
On a side note I have been teaching them Bonsai and their Bonsai results are Out of this World...
 

Bolero

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I think its going to take a suite of laws. Which can be done, and has been done. Strange saying its too hard, lets just arm everyone; cause we know more guns means more deaths by guns, not less. Lets face it, moral, or societal change, takes generations, so that's not going to happen. The option is legislation, and sure that will be difficult, but its doable.

I hate to thought of as a troll,You are not a Troll..., really what I'm trying to do is understand the white male, republican voter, He or She is a Pragmatic, Conservative, Realist... That tribe of white men that voted for Trump and still think he's the best man for the job, Trump is the Tribal USA choice... I'm concerned because more then likely Trump is going to drag us into another war with Iran, and probably Nth Korea,Only if attacked first... And as allies well be dragged along into it like in Iraq and Afghanistan Yes for your own benefit... So I just want to understand how these people think and why; and unfortunately these republican tribal folk have wrapped themselves up in some kind of godly righteousness, and guns, and white supremacy, and paranoia, and all kinds of crap that defies logic.Not sure about the Godlyness but the others, Yes And for some reason, lots of these people have bonsai! and Guns... Go figure.

But really, this thread is worn out, so I'll say see ya later and go research elsewhere. I seriously hope you will stay and keep us enlightened as to your Australian POV... Thanks for all the rational and logical responses (sarcasm), You are very welcome...I really enjoyed the "I know what I know and don't have to enlighten myself" argument. Good one.
 

Vance Wood

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I think its going to take a suite of laws. Which can be done, and has been done. Strange logic saying its too hard, lets just arm everyone; cause we know more guns means more deaths by guns, not less. Lets face it, moral, or societal change, takes generations, so that's not going to happen. The option is legislation, and sure that will be difficult, but its doable.

I hate to thought of as a troll, really what I'm trying to do is understand the white male, republican voter. That tribe of white men that voted for Trump and still think he's the best man for the job. I'm concerned because more then likely Trump is going to drag us into another war with Iran, and probably Nth Korea. And as allies well be dragged along into it like in Iraq and Afghanistan. So I just want to understand how these people think and why; and unfortunately these republican tribal folk have wrapped themselves up in some kind of godly righteousness, and guns, and white supremacy, and paranoia, and all kinds of crap that defies logic. And for some reason, lots of these people have bonsai! Go figure.

But really, this thread is worn out, so I'll say see ya later and go research elsewhere. Thanks for all the rational and logical responses (sarcasm), I really enjoyed the "I know what I know and don't have to enlighten myself" argument. Good one.
SO__in other words let me find a last insulting, condescending, self righteous, remark to justify my leaving and in doing so revealing that I know or care nothing for bonsai. Good one.
 
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Oh dear what extremist views come from the USA public nowadays give up guns and the world will end in blood gore and rape. Doesn't happen in the UK or many many other countries and we still manage to stay a democracy and change who runs the government on a regular basis
 

Vance Wood

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OH come on, that's a crock. From what I understand there are neighborhoods in the UK where your police wont go because you guys have allowed these immigrants to set up their own communities with their own laws.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Oh dear what extremist views come from the USA public nowadays give up guns and the world will end in blood gore and rape. Doesn't happen in the UK or many many other countries and we still manage to stay a democracy and change who runs the government on a regular basis

We’ve addressed the fact that few law-abiding citizens—including the police—are armed in the United Kingdom these days. Even those Brits who successfully defend themselves against attackers and home invaders, with a gun or otherwise, may start to wish they hadn’t once they’re found liable for damages. That’s right: In the UK, a burglar can sue you—and win—for injuring him after he breaks into your house.

As far as we’re concerned, depriving citizens of their fundamental right to self-defense is a repugnant act, regardless of the effect that it might have on violent crime rates. But since homicide statistics from the UK are so often wielded as pro-gun control weapons, it doesn’t hurt to take a look at those numbers, where they come from and what they really mean.It should be clear by now that any comparison between FBI “murder” rates for the United States and Home Office “murder” rates for the United Kingdom is utterly meaningless.

In the United States, crime statistics come from quite a few sources, but studies of nationwide trends generally focus on the numbers provided by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The methodology used by the FBI is fairly straightforward: If there is a dead body and signs of foul play, it’s a murder or non-negligent manslaughter. Note that there is no distinction made between justified and unjustified killings. From a typical perspective, the FBI numbers are on the high side, because they include crimes of passion and self-defense shootings—in other words, quite a few deaths that are not legally considered murders.

Homicide stats for the United Kingdom have traditionally come from reports from the Home Office, which tallies murders according to a completely different system. The crucial methodological difference is that a murder’s existential status depends on a conviction, not a body and evidence of foul play. Think of how many murders go unsolved, and it will become clear that the Home Office’s numbers are woefully low. Not only that, but they are reported from the time of conviction, not the time of death. Since murder cases often take years to be resolved, statistics for a given year tend to reflect events actually occurring in previous years. For example, Home Office figures appear to indicate a massive spike in murders culminating in 2003; in actuality, this is the year in which the victims of prolific serial killer Harold Shipman—who murdered throughout his long career—were reported.

It should be clear by now that any comparison between FBI “murder” rates for the United States and Home Office “murder” rates for the UK is utterly meaningless. The numbers are weighted in different directions, and the times do not line up. There are, of course, other sources for information about murder in the UK, but all are problematic. The Crime Survey, conducted by the Office for National Statistics, is based entirely on interviews with individuals, not law enforcement data. There is no way to confirm the accuracy of any of the reports tallied, and the fact that the methodology has undergone multiple changes casts doubt on the accuracy of how the ONS tracks long-term trends.

It is anyone’s guess how far off the mark official reports of the British murder rate are. Using alternative methodologies, observers have predicted that the real rate is “double or higher” than the reported rate, or even up to five times greater. We will probably never know, but you should give no credence whatsoever to pundits who spout off about how much lower the murder rate is in the UK now that they’ve disarmed the populace.

Note that how murder rates in the UK and United States match up is not the only question worth asking. Without making any comparison to another country, we can inquire whether the UK murder rate fell after the 1997 ban on handguns. Even if the Home Office data is basically meaningless on a yearly basis, it might be possible to reconstruct macro-level trends by examining the data over the intervening decades. What we see is a rather large increase in murders after the ban—even allowing for the false spike in 2003—that only began to subside in conjunction with a nationwide expansion of police forces.

When we look at the effects of gun policies meant to reduce crime, it is helpful to focus on areas that are experiencing higher levels of crime to begin with. Going by Metropolitan Police figures, the murder rate in London dipped momentarily, but then proceeded to reach its highest level yet; it has only begun to fall in the last few years, presumably for reasons not linked to gun control. Strikingly, the reported rates of both gun-enabled and knife-enabled crime have both increased since the handgun ban. It’s not hard to imagine why: Any punk on the street can make easy money with the certainty that his victims won’t be armed.

It is difficult to make conclusive arguments about crime rates in the UK, but we can say with confidence that anyone who confronts you with a “clear improvement” brought about by the country’s gun control program is either lying or naïve. What is certain is that, for those British citizens unfortunate enough to face a robbery or home invasion, there’s really not a lot to do except comply and hope for the best.
 

AlainK

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I still affirm the concept that we don't have a weapon problem but a moral problem.View attachment 163610

Maybe both, but that's your concern. I realized that we have the same values, and share most of our cultural, moral references (and inspiration), but for a couple of "details" like gun culture. (1)

Excellent trees: thanks for posting.

(1) A movie scene suddenly crosses my mind. Can't remember the title, but it was a kind of breakthrough in Western films:

A bandit had taken a woman hostage and threatening to kill her while protecting himself behind her.
...Suddenly: BANG!
The girl collapses, a bullet in her soulder, the man behind her, slightly taller gets the bullet right in his (dark) heart. Or so I suppose, because he falls dead on the ground.

The girl is still alive.

The sheriff puts his gun back into his holster (or whatever you call it), and says in a very neutral tone smthg like "She'll live".

(I'm not sure but I think Gary Cooper was the sheriff. Anyone remembers the title of the film?...)
 

ianb

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We’ve addressed the fact that few law-abiding citizens—including the police—are armed in the United Kingdom these days. blah blah.

Really a cut and paste from the NRA? OK then maybe instead of comparing murder rates we should compare murder by gun rates? At least then it's pretty simple. We can also see that the UK rates are comparable with most of the rest of western Europe.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Really a cut and paste from the NRA? OK then maybe instead of comparing murder rates we should compare murder by gun rates? At least then it's pretty simple. We can also see that the UK rates are comparable with most of the rest of western Europe.

Hey I just did a Google search on UK murder rates and that's what popped up :) I think it might be better just to re-calculate US murder rates based on UK murder rate criteria. At least then we could try an apples to apples comparison. I was simply pointing out that the two statistics are reporting completely different things - and yet I hear people constantly comparing them side to side.

I was just looking at conviction statistics in the US however and they are abysmally low (somewhere in the 64% range). In some cities like Detroit, fewer than 30% are solved. The good news is that murder rates overall have dropped by a third since 1990, and crimes of passion (which are easier to solve) have dropped by more. That means the murders that are left tend to be harder to solve because they are more likely to be gang or organized crime related.
 

wlambeth

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This is a debate about taking away the things that make us Americans.
Libtards can't stand the fact that 2nd amendment supporters will defend themselves against all enemies foreign and domestic.
This is part of the Saul Alinsky playbook...socialize healthcare, tax the citizenry to death, take away guns then the masses have to rely on the government to supply that which is needed to survive. Only those that give their souls to the libtard philosophy will be provided for.
Then we will have no protection against the marauding thugs that will prey upon the citizenry.
Just take a look at what is happening now with these antifa(gs) running around.
I'm too old to take an ass whooping by a bunch of punk thugs.
It takes quite some time now for police to arrive on the scene, so I would rather protect myself.
The truth is the U.S. ranks far down the scale in these types of shootings and in cities that have 2nd amendment friendly laws murders have gone down dramatically.
So the government will never be allowed to take our guns and that is a truth that will ring clear for all times.
 
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M. Frary

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If you don't like guns and appreciate the constitution...GET THE FUCK OUT.
Go to australia, england, europe or some other assfuck country.
Good luck to you as we don't want or need you in the US

God Bless America!
I'm thinking I would like to see you make me leave.
 
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