Late night yamadori ninja mission.
- Thread starter Beanwagon
- Start date
f1pt4
Chumono
And if you look further in that same post I mentioned to contact the ministry if planning on collecting on crown land.
The parts of crown land where I collect I got permission from the ministry. No permit is required, but I do have limitations.
It is possible on the west coast that they issue permits. I don't live there. Never collected there. Never asked. So I don't know.
Always ask. That I do know.
PiñonJ
Omono
I think that's the fundamental point here.
Tycoss
Chumono
I live in Canada, and permits to collect on crown land are easy to come by for the most part. $5.00 gets you rights to 20 trees under 2m. tall. You just can't collect threatened species or in campgrounds. Different laws for different areas though. I'd assume Australia has something similar.
Our public are generally way more laid back than some of our American friends too. I was out digging a bush once on a First Nations reservation. A guy drove up to see what I was up to. He ended up helping me dig, pointed out another nice bush, and we finished by picking berries and having a beer. There aren't many places here where the first response is to call the cops or shoot you. I have always checked for permission though, and would suggest the same.
Our public are generally way more laid back than some of our American friends too. I was out digging a bush once on a First Nations reservation. A guy drove up to see what I was up to. He ended up helping me dig, pointed out another nice bush, and we finished by picking berries and having a beer. There aren't many places here where the first response is to call the cops or shoot you. I have always checked for permission though, and would suggest the same.
Tycoss
Chumono
By the way, I really appreciate whe people try to keep things civil. Notice in my post above, the ethical point was made (get permission) and some potential comparison or help was given (check for crown land collecting permits) but I didn't get nasty. Bonsai Nut doesn't exist so we can call everyone we don't agree with a cunt fart or whatever. Let's try to be helpful instead of divisive.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
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The point I have made repeatedly is that asking first is what bonsai collectors should do. Many object for some reason.
FWIW, the shooting and calling the cops are not a first response in the U.S. Either, but they are both possible outcomes if you cross some lines. Most of the encounters I've had have been more than friendly, IF you're not on land that doesn't belong to you at night--which the OP was.
The point I have made repeatedly is that asking first is what bonsai collectors should do. Many object for some reason.
wireme
Masterpiece
It will be a little different in each forest district here even within the same province. Some places have some regulations or available permits already in place and some don't. When I first started collecting here I went into the ministry office and asked, was given verbal permission but no paperwork. I collected some trees based upon that for at least five years. Eventually I became uncomfortable knowing I had no way to prove permission was given if anyone asked questions. I couldn't even remember the name of the person I talked to, didn't know if he even worked there anymore. That's when I went back in and we kind of worked together to create an actual written permit.
There is a real need for official regulation and tracking of non timber forest products of all kinds here. The ministry knows they need to do something, have talked about it for many years... It's a someday we better do something about this kind of deal.
It could be a good thing, actual regulated and declared revenue coming in from the harvesting of non timber forest products can be added incentive to protect forested lands. There was a study in the PNW that showed more income from mushroom picking than would be realized through logging over the time period of timber regrowth in a mature forest. I don't know if that lead to any changes in harvesting practices, probably not.
There is a bit of a kerfuffle happening around here right now. The large local Mormon clan is out there harvesting a thousand pounds of huckleberries per day and shipping them across the border for profit. People are saying "hey, what about the Bears, what about locals picking for their own food?" No-one has called them thieves that I know of. There's enough of a public outcry about this that I expect the whole NTFP debate will be revived here within the local forest district, possibly the entire province! They will at least be talking again and trying to come up with something.
Yes! How can one feel good about growing a plant or training a bonsai that wasn't properly acquired?
A tree that is gifted or put in position for you to buy will mean so much more.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Just found this feller quite amazing with his fk-it attitude that hide excellent skills!
And he makes me laugh!
View a few!
Sorce
And he makes me laugh!
View a few!
Sorce
clive bennett
Mame
It is so easy to just find the land owner and ask, I did this and he was please to give permission, a bottle of wine afterwards and I can now go back whenever I like to collect more. And in daytime when people might walk past ., and they only ask why and then get interested furthering the hobby. It is just good manners, honest and good for other bonsai artists
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Yeah, agreed! Found him a few weeks ago.
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
Well, this got ugly
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Wee
Chumono
I'll just leave this here.....
Brian
Brian
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
michaelj
Chumono
That's often not the case. There are many places and circumstances in which the owner is not liable for the injury. In fact, relatively few situations in which the owner will be liable.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Jesus, OK. So liability is specific to "many places and circumstances..." Also Define "relatively few situations"
Fact is, owners CAN be held liable, if they get taken to court--which is why some states and locations require specific forms of insurance to cover this crap. We all know that even if owners try to protect themselves and they' re technically not liable, people try and sue them for stuff. I'd wager the vast majority of property owners don't want you on their property without their permission
http://wiki.legalexaminer.com/help-center/articles/legal-issues-and-property-owners-liability.aspx
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
michaelj
Chumono
How about this: probably 99 times out of a 100 times, if a trespasser you weren't expecting to trespass on your land injures himself on your property and sues you, if you have the guts to take it to trial, you will win. The laws vary from state to state - in some places, the trespasser is always just SOL, in some places, not many, the trespasser has almost the same rights as an invited guest, but for the most part, and in most places, unless you did something deliberate to harm trespassers (like a spring gun or a concealed excavation), or unless the trespassers were kids and you put an "attractive nuisance" on your property (i.e., something other than an interesting piece of yamadori), you'll have very very limited duties to protect from, or even warn the trespasser about, dangerous conditions on your property, much less make sure that they don't do something stupid and harm themselves. Absent such a duty, you have no liability if someone trespasses on your land and breaks their neck or gets eaten by your dog, or whatever.
The link you cited talks about premises liability to invitees. These are the majority of premises liability cases, and they involve people who have the right to come onto the property in places like stores, churches, restaurants, government land and the myriad of other places that you can walk onto without being a trespasser. But there are totally different circumstances when you are talking about people who aren't allowed to be there.
Here's a somewhat better link, which addresses liability to trespassers.
https://premisesliability.uslegal.com/duty-owed-trespassers/
Frankly, not as good as some of the material I used to hand out at MCLE courses, when I was lecturing other lawyers about defending premises liability tort claims, but it gives a decent summary of what the deal is.
So what kind of claims could be brought? Here are some example: You plant land mines around your marijuana farm, or load a spring gun to shoot and kill anyone who enters your cabin in the woods, you leave open mine shaft tunnels adjacent to a popular hiking trail, you keep a wild chimp on your property and sometimes forget to lock his cage, even though you know the high school kids often use your back yard as a shortcut to the practice field. There are all sorts of odd situations in which a court might find liability, but those odd cases are rare, and easily 99% of the time, if a trespasser gets hurt, even because you left your property in a dangerous condition, you, the landowner, will win.
tl;dr: The idea that trespassers who get hurt while trespassing can usually get loads of money by suing the landowner is a myth. It rarely happens, and only under very limited circumstances.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
It's not about the law it's about the way the injured person was raised.
An honorable robber won't get hurt, or want to go to court.
It could be family who thieves you.
It's a fucking snake that sues to get rich.
Sorce
An honorable robber won't get hurt, or want to go to court.
It could be family who thieves you.
It's a fucking snake that sues to get rich.
Sorce
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