Leftover Mugo

[Treelord]

Hello,

It has been 4-5 years since i got into bonsai. I have a few chinese elms and junipers that i keep, but not much more since my work required most of my time. Due to a health issue i now have ample time so i bought this leftover mugo for just 5 euros, because i saw a low branch and a good trunk shaped in an angle from the ground, having decent root flare.. I have read vance wood guide on mugos but im still afraid to do much due to inexperience.

After purchasing the tree i repotted it to a colander in pumice as per vance recomendation, no root cutting, just removed 60-70% of the surrounding heavy clay soil, but left the core intact. I also carefully untangled some crossing roots.
I have NOT cut anything above ground, and im making this post for this reason- There is a knuckle of branches there, is it going to develop inverse taper or because its low and there is another branch very low, it thickens the trunk and thats why it has this nice shape?

Should i cut the biggest one or two branches now? I fail to see a decent main line, but maybe im just new.
I am quite satisfied with the trunk thickness, i want to to begin some basic shaping but im lost on Pine development.

i think the only viable front is close to the angle of the photos. Any insight as to trunkline or next steps would be welcome. I can provide more photos

 

[akillas]

I would cut the thickest branches back to the last 2-3 whorls of foliage then wait until spring, where I will chop again the thickest branches to the last strong growth. Do that process 3 years along with whatever else is mentioned in Vance’s compiled post, and a tree line will appear!

 

[Treelord]

What about inverse taper on the knuckle? The trunk is currently very aesthetic and the only reason i bought this tree, i dont want inverse taper to ruin it

 

[akillas]

This species is not easy to develop inverse taper unless you let a big branch escape and grow.by shortening the thick branches you stop this effect. It’s a slow,controlled grower unlike JBP or JRP who easily have this problem..

 

[Shibui]

All the low branches have helped thicken the lower trunk but if that cluster of branches all stay it will eventually develop inverse taper. I would certainly be removing some of them as soon as I cn decide which.
While deciding which branches to remove, make sure you are not only concentrating on the current main trunk as the only possible trunk. Any branch growing from the whorl is a candidate for removal, including the main trunk. Try looking at each branch as a possible trunk line. Branches with side branches are valuable - if they grow in a good direction. Branches with long, bare sections are less useful so more likely to be on the chop list.

With all the branches on your tree it is hard to see which ones have side branches and which are bare in the 2D photos so you will have to work that out.

 

[Treelord]

Following @Shibui 's advice i have cut the 4 big thick branches highlighted with the red line.
I removed all foliage they had, and I left stumps to prevent dieback and maybe carve deadwood in the future.

I have left 3 branches with foliage, each one in different height and angle.

Branch nr 1 is a very low sacrifice branch that is very long and has decent growth on it. I will keep for a few years more to boost that part around it
Branch nr 2 is a bit under the whorl and to the back, it has 2 buds very close to the trunk and then more secondary branches relatively close, and its not that thick.
Branch nr 3 is has the most foliage close to the trunk, along with a lot of secondary branches and thin structure.


I am happy with my choices, but i dont think the tree will survive. If you take a look at my first uploads and the ones on this post, you will see i have removed more than 50% of the foliage mass- i would say more like 75%, and the 4 thickest branches. However, when i brought it home from the nursery,i did not cut any roots, i just removed what soil i could and slip pot it in a pumice colander. According to the vance wood method, i have gone too far with my pruning..

The longest needle is 4 cm, and most are around 2 cm and the colour is light green. I think its a dwarf mugo- does that change anything in how i should treat it? Maybe better chances it survives my butchering?

 

[Shibui]

I am happy with my choices, but i dont think the tree will survive.

Why so pessimistic? Most trees will do anything to survive. Removing 75% of foliage is NOT an automatic death sentence. many species can survive 100% foliage loss.
Just take a deep breath, continue care and wait for the response.
Removing 75% of foliage may not be a death sentence but you will need to let the tree recover for a year or 2 before more intervention.

I left stumps to prevent dieback and maybe carve deadwood in the future.

Those 'stumps' are a little more than stumps IMHO. I cannot see any situation where you'll nee jin or dead wood that long and skinny but leaving them long won't hurt so no real problem.

 

[Treelord]

Why so pessimistic? Most trees will do anything to survive. Removing 75% of foliage is NOT an automatic death sentence. many species can survive 100% foliage loss.
Just take a deep breath, continue care and wait for the response.
Removing 75% of foliage may not be a death sentence but you will need to let the tree recover for a year or 2 before more intervention.


Those 'stumps' are a little more than stumps IMHO. I cannot see any situation where you'll nee jin or dead wood that long and skinny but leaving them long won't hurt so no real problem.

Im inexperienced with mugo pines, i just read what ive found online about them and they gave me the impression that removing this much would be very dangerous.

I also think they are too long, and i wont make all of it deadwood, i just thought its better to let the tree dry them out and prevent dieback, then next spring i could cut them off completely/jin some of them. Ive read that its easier on the tree like this. Should i lop them off completely? Dont they store sugars and energy in the wood?

 

[Shibui]

i just read what ive found online about them and they gave me the impression that removing this much would be very dangerous.

This is totally dependant on species. I know of many species that can be cut to the ground - 100% foliage loss- and still come back strong. Mugho should normally be ok with 50% foliage reduction.

I also think they are too long, and i wont make all of it deadwood, i just thought its better to let the tree dry them out and prevent dieback, then next spring i could cut them off completely/jin some of them. Ive read that its easier on the tree like this. Should i lop them off completely? Dont they store sugars and energy in the wood?

No problem leaving longer stumps but not necessary. Can always cut back later.
If you do not need dead wood you can cut off completely (on healthy pines)
Remember that when you remove the bark, the dead wood centre will be far thinner. Need to match dead wood thickness with length to look good.
Leave a short stump when cutting weaker shoots on stronger branches/trunks.
Lots of theories about energy and sugar storage but I have not seen any reality on those theories.

 

[Treelord]

Which pine species can i chop the hardest and not worry about dying?

The deadwood will be pretty small, as will the tree.

Is there anything else i can do to keep it alive, besides waiting and watering? Its in a semi-shaded spot.
I will update this thread if all goes well.

This is totally dependant on species. I know of many species that can be cut to the ground - 100% foliage loss- and still come back strong. Mugho should normally be ok with 50% foliage reduction.

No problem leaving longer stumps but not necessary. Can always cut back later.
If you do not need dead wood you can cut off completely (on healthy pines)
Remember that when you remove the bark, the dead wood centre will be far thinner. Need to match dead wood thickness with length to look good.
Leave a short stump when cutting weaker shoots on stronger branches/trunks.
Lots of theories about energy and sugar storage but I have not seen any reality on those theories.

 

[Paradox]

Which pine species can i chop the hardest and not worry about dying?

The deadwood will be pretty small, as will the tree.

Is there anything else i can do to keep it alive, besides waiting and watering? Its in a semi-shaded spot.
I will update this thread if all goes well.

You took off a lot and it might not survive. When I have a tree like this, I remove one or two unwanted branches a year to make sure Im not cutting off too much.
Pines in general do not take well to chopping a lot of foliage off and its not recommended to chop a pine of any species
Only thing you can do is water it when it needs it and hope it recovers. Dont fall into the trap of over caring for it to the point it dies from being messed with too much.

 

[Treelord]

You took off a lot and it might not survive. When I have a tree like this, I remove one or two unwanted branches a year to make sure Im not cutting off too much.
Pines in general do not take well to chopping a lot of foliage off and its not recommended to chop a pine of any species
Only thing you can do is water it when it needs it and hope it recovers. Dont fall into the trap of over caring for it to the point it dies from being messed with too much.

i left long wood stumps without foliage, and a full pot of roots. I plan to fully cut 2 of the branches next spring, if it makes it.

I will post a photo update in 2-3 weeks, see how the needles hold up.

 

[Shibui]

Which pine species can i chop the hardest and not worry about dying?

Depending on your definition of 'chop'
I find that Pinus radiata is very resilient. It often buds on bare wood when the trunk is chopped hard.
I think I remember seeing another species (Mediterranean area?) that also sprouted from stumps after bigger trees were chopped down.

If you mean pruning branches back to older needles when talking about 'chop'
My mugho often back buds on bare wood below the needles after pruning back to older needles.

I certainly have not experienced problems when pruning pines hard here. Your tree may take a while to get going after this pruning but I'm confident it will survive.

 

[Treelord]

Chop i mean chop the trunk down to 1 or 2 branches as i did with this.
What about Scots pine? Could i trunk chop it in a similar fashion?

Pinus radiata-We dont have that pine here!
Mediterranean we have 3 mainly- Pinus halepensis, Pinus brutia, Pinus pinea.
Aleppo is a messy thing because it has 2 kinds of growth and its hard to refine,
Calabrian pine has quite long needles and it doesnt respond well to bonsai techniques
Stone pine has huge needles and also responds poorly from what i see..

Sadly our local pines are bad bonsai material, or there is not enough information?
US,Australia,Asia have way better pines for bonsai.

About the tree, cuts have been sealed by resin, remaining needles look healthy- no change, but its soon.

 

[Ozz80]

Isn't it possible that you find Japanese Red Pine, Japanese Black Pine or Japanese White Pine etc. in your location? Austrian pine and Scots pine should also be native to Italy. They all grow well in Istanbul and if your climate is cooler, they should do even finer I guess They all look great bonsai material to me. You can check them here:

Tree guide – Bonsai Today

bonsaitoday.com

This summer I followed @Shibui 's suggestions on my Scots Pine and JRP and gave them a pretty heavy haircut. JRP flushed vigorously afterwards, meanwhile the Scots Pine has created lots of buds. It seems that pines are resilient to pruning to some extent

 

[Treelord]

Isn't it possible that you find Japanese Red Pine, Japanese Black Pine or Japanese White Pine etc. in your location? Austrian pine and Scots pine should also be native to Italy. They all grow well in Istanbul and if your climate is cooler, they should do even finer I guess They all look great bonsai material to me. You can check them here:

Tree guide – Bonsai Today

bonsaitoday.com

This summer I followed @Shibui 's suggestions on my Scots Pine and JRP and gave them a pretty heavy haircut. JRP flushed vigorously afterwards, meanwhile the Scots Pine has created lots of buds. It seems that pines are resilient to pruning to some extent

I would like to purchase a japanese pine, but they are not found in local nurseries..
Where do you get your Japanese pines in east mediterranean?

Austrian and Scots pine are indeed here and i plan to acquire a scots pine to style!
Although austrian has long awkward needles that are hard to reduce from what i see.

 

[Paradox]

i left long wood stumps without foliage, and a full pot of roots. I plan to fully cut 2 of the branches next spring, if it makes it.

I will post a photo update in 2-3 weeks, see how the needles hold up.

I would wait and let the tree recover for a couple of years before you cut more.

Chop i mean chop the trunk down to 1 or 2 branches as i did with this.
What about Scots pine? Could i trunk chop it in a similar fashion?

Again it is not recommended to remove more than 50% of the needles in one year for ANY PINE SPECIES.
If you would prefer to kill trees and not get anywhere, have fun but dont expect to be able to create a bonsai.
Or you can pick a species that takes better to drastic reduction like ficus, burning bush, some maples

You are going to find that Bonsai is a marathon, not a sprint in most cases and patience is needed.
It will teach you patience whether you like it or not
If you cant be patient, you arent going to enjoy bonsai

 

[Ozz80]

I would like to purchase a japanese pine, but they are not found in local nurseries..
Where do you get your Japanese pines in east mediterranean?

Austrian and Scots pine are indeed here and i plan to acquire a scots pine to style!
Although austrian has long awkward needles that are hard to reduce from what i see.

Sorry, I misunderstood the problem. I thought that the question was about pine subspecies suitable to Mediterranean climate. I see now that your question is about -vendors that sell them. Unfortunately I am not sure that vendors in Turkey will ship to EU and even if they did, that would not be economical possibly. I guess other members in Italy or EU countries will supply better info about vendors that ship to your location or nearby vendors that you can visit.

But while waiting for answer from them, you can also check previous reviews about vendors located in EU at this forum. You can find these topics by searching. Some are,

S

Thread 'Reputabile EU bonsai sellers.'

Jun 30, 2025

Hi, I'm on the lookout to buy some black pines, both in an early stage of development but also wanted to buy one which is well advanced and ready for training. Would like this last one to be of a fairly decent size, with good tapering. I'm located in the EU. Would anyone know of reputable bonsai seller in the European Union? Would anyone also know if importing plants through the EU is permissible or if it is specific country related?

• sonbai1
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Wanted to buy

• 

W

Thread 'Beneluxge Vendors (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Germany)'

Sep 25, 2018

Europeans, usually not the kind of people to run bonsai stores. That's just fine, but it makes home delivery an issue. You need a car to visit nurseries with very limited opening times, usually they open on demand only. There are few walk-in stores we can visit.
I've been ordering plants from home, and it usually turns out pretty OK. I mean, you get what you pay for and there's always a risk factor involved when you can't see nursery material before you buy it.
There are a few more Europeans on this website, and I'd like to share some of my experiences with online nurseries / online...

• Wires_Guy_wires
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Vendor experiences

• 

Also you can look into "Vendor Experiences" part of the forum.

Vendor experiences

For discussion of your experiences with online and retail tree and equipment vendors. Please be sure to stick to the facts when posting opinions of your experiences.

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Treelord]

Sorry, I misunderstood the problem. I thought that the question was about pine subspecies suitable to Mediterranean climate. I see now that your question is about -vendors that sell them. Unfortunately I am not sure that vendors in Turkey will ship to EU and even if they did, that would not be economical possibly. I guess other members in Italy or EU countries will supply better info about vendors that ship to your location or nearby vendors that you can visit.

But while waiting for answer from them, you can also check previous reviews about vendors located in EU at this forum. You can find these topics by searching. Some are,

S

Thread 'Reputabile EU bonsai sellers.'

Jun 30, 2025

Hi, I'm on the lookout to buy some black pines, both in an early stage of development but also wanted to buy one which is well advanced and ready for training. Would like this last one to be of a fairly decent size, with good tapering. I'm located in the EU. Would anyone know of reputable bonsai seller in the European Union? Would anyone also know if importing plants through the EU is permissible or if it is specific country related?

• sonbai1
• Replies: 7
• Forum: Wanted to buy

• 

W

Thread 'Beneluxge Vendors (Belgium, Netherlands, Luxemburg, Germany)'

Sep 25, 2018

Europeans, usually not the kind of people to run bonsai stores. That's just fine, but it makes home delivery an issue. You need a car to visit nurseries with very limited opening times, usually they open on demand only. There are few walk-in stores we can visit.
I've been ordering plants from home, and it usually turns out pretty OK. I mean, you get what you pay for and there's always a risk factor involved when you can't see nursery material before you buy it.
There are a few more Europeans on this website, and I'd like to share some of my experiences with online nurseries / online...

• Wires_Guy_wires
• Replies: 11
• Forum: Vendor experiences

• 

Also you can look into "Vendor Experiences" part of the forum.

Vendor experiences

For discussion of your experiences with online and retail tree and equipment vendors. Please be sure to stick to the facts when posting opinions of your experiences.

www.bonsainut.com

That Beneluxge Vendors thread was very helpful, im now looking to procure a JRP, since i have seen reputable bonsai growers mention their vigor in warm coastal areas. Thank you for the help!

I will update this thread as soon as there is a change to the mugo pine(which after further research, i think its a pumilio)