"Majoring on Minors"

milehigh_7

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Well said!!! Recovering Baptist eh? Remind me to discuss this with you some day. ;)
 
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Chris Johnston said:
But it seems to me that "majoring on minors" is a lot of what we are doing lately. We will argue incessantly about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or which is the best source of bonsai material, or Superthrive, or soil mix, or almost anything else) while very little of substance gets said about how to grow healthier bonsai in order to have more opportunity to make beautiful bonsai.
So, we should all post something substantial about bonsai, such as your example of starting a thread to complain about other threads that don't talk about anything substantial? :confused:

Will
 
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irene_b

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Many, many years ago, I heard this phrase repeatedly. At the time, I was a Baptist fundamentalist "preacher-boy" making my way through college, worrying quite a lot about others' hair length, clothing choices, and eschatological theories. I feel much better now, thank you for asking.

But it seems to me that "majoring on minors" is a lot of what we are doing lately. We will argue incessantly about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (or which is the best source of bonsai material, or Superthrive, or soil mix, or almost anything else) while very little of substance gets said about how to grow healthier bonsai in order to have more opportunity to make beautiful bonsai.

Without naming names, I must say I am really disappointed in the way all this has gone down lately.

One of the things I find very distasteful is the tendency of certain writers to speak down to their readers. I and most folks who have been able to make their way onto the interwebs have at least a modicum of intelligence. Don't insult that. If you have a point to make, quit doling it out in a few sentences at a time. Make your argument so it doesn't get hijacked or interrupted and then it's far easier for folks to evaluate it. And leave your insults at home. It's one thing to go head to head with someone with whom you disagree or for whom you have distaste. But be specific. I didn't call you a poopyhead.

Another that I find very difficult to swallow (and I speak for myself in these things, but think perhaps others share them) is a premise of any kind expressed in absolute terms. This is as unscientific as I was in the pulpit in those days. If you are making a scientific point, really read some of the papers you are quoting and notice that most scientists hedge their statements by noting the limitations of their studies, or mentioning where more study is needed. Simply stating, "the preponderence of scientific studies lead me to believe" would certainly deflect a great deal of carping.

By all means, make your point and argue it passionately. But this scorched-earth policy is stupid, divisive, and ugly. Some people think that if they believe they are right, they have to make everyone else seem stupid. It's disgusting.

Like many others before me, I will just say that this is getting old. The need to be on top is peurile and petty. I don't want to be one of those of whom it is said, "He thinks of himself more highly than he ought." Or, "He's a legend in his own mind."
Wonderfully said Chris...Thank You.
Irene
 
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So, we should all post something substantial about bonsai, such as your example of starting a thread to complain about other threads that don't talk about anything substantial? :confused:

Will
Don't start with me.
 
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Don't start with me.
Nor with me, straw men do not become you.

I have heard this same complaint from you for years and for years I have responded the same way.....these forums are like a television, if you don't like what is on, change the channel, don't just sit there screaming at the monitor.

The sad fact is that the most activity on this forum comes with the fights. The recent flush proves this once again. Look at the top threads here by number of replies (activity) and you will find the top flame wars here, the facts speak for themselves, everyone says they wish it would stop, but they all add to the fires. No one forces you to read the threads or post to them, that is your choice, so don't complain about it.

If you or anyone are serious about discussing bonsai, then do so. Starting threads to complain about other threads that don't discuss bonsai is just adding more of what you claim not to want to the forum.

There is also the ignore feature, which I just added King Ding Dong to. I use it to ignore people who have convinced me that they have absolutely nothing to add to a discussion, it saves me a load of time responding to drivel and it keeps me focused.

In short, there is no reason to complain when you control what you read and/or respond to.



Will
 
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I thought we had agreed to leave the past in the past. I am striving to do that. If this is what the preponderance of material will be here, it will get very lonely, I am afraid.
 

Vance Wood

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I thought we had agreed to leave the past in the past. I am striving to do that. If this is what the preponderance of material will be here, it will get very lonely, I am afraid.
Good grief Chris, you started this storm and then complain about the rain?
 

Smoke

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I thought we had agreed to leave the past in the past. I am striving to do that. If this is what the preponderance of material will be here, it will get very lonely, I am afraid.
It's not important Chris. The evidence is right here and on many forums. For the most part it is always Will and Vance against most everyone else. Each argue the hell out of their respective opinion and no conclusion is ever drawn. We still each continue to do bonsai in our own way.

My proposal is to continue to post pictures of your work and it's continued improvement. I do this and once an a while Will will ask questions about my work. Not always good questions but at least he is looking. Sometimes there are compliments too. I sometimes have to look hard though cause they are overshadowed by the sarcasim. The sarcasim feels good though. If he didn't care he would not ask questions. When I answer them I feel he is learning.

Thanks, Al
 
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It's not important Chris. The evidence is right here and on many forums. For the most part it is always Will and Vance against most everyone else. Each argue the hell out of their respective opinion and no conclusion is ever drawn. We still each continue to do bonsai in our own way.

My proposal is to continue to post pictures of your work and it's continued improvement. I do this and once an a while Will will ask questions about my work. Not always good questions but at least he is looking. Sometimes there are compliments too. I sometimes have to look hard though cause they are overshadowed by the sarcasim. The sarcasim feels good though. If he didn't care he would not ask questions. When I answer them I feel he is learning.

Thanks, Al

Al, I know this may be hard for you to understand, but this isn't and wasn't about you, it never was. never will be.

But since you are right in the middle, please point out these "many forums" the evidence to support your words is located at.

Also, substantiated fact is not opinion, and the conclusions are always there, what remains are those who choose to accept them or not. For example, I remember how you called my "Three Dimensional Bonsai" article stupid and went on for pages and pages about how it was flawed and that the concept was whacked. Later the article was published in Bonsai Today and other publications and translated into three languages. I received emails telling me how the article changed peoples perceptions, and we see references to such bonsai as described on forums all over the world, almost on a daily basis. The latest of which was at http://www.internationalbonsaiforum.com/index.php?topic=112.0 It wasn't a fad, not impossible, not foolish, but a valid form of bonsai expression used before I wrote the article and used after you condemned the practice.

What may also surprise you is that the very thing you claim to want is actually happening all over the web, such as at the link above....that is serious discussion on bonsai. It is there to be found, for those who truly want it. It can be had here, there, anywhere, just do it, I do.

So why not stop jumping in like you did here just to throw barbs and actually practice what you preach? If you can.

And if you're going to throw a hissy fit every time someone does anything but praise your trees....stop showing them and just pretend they are perfect.







Will
 

Smoke

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Al, I know this may be hard for you to understand, but this isn't and wasn't about you, it never was. never will be.

But since you are right in the middle, please point out these "many forums" the evidence to support your words is located at.

Also, substantiated fact is not opinion, and the conclusions are always there, what remains are those who choose to accept them or not. For example, I remember how you called my "Three Dimensional Bonsai" article stupid and went on for pages and pages about how it was flawed and that the concept was whacked. Later the article was published in Bonsai Today and other publications and translated into three languages. I received emails telling me how the article changed peoples perceptions, and we see references to such bonsai as described on forums all over the world, almost on a daily basis. The latest of which was at http://www.internationalbonsaiforum.com/index.php?topic=112.0 It wasn't a fad, not impossible, not foolish, but a valid form of bonsai expression used before I wrote the article and used after you condemned the practice.

What may also surprise you is that the very thing you claim to want is actually happening all over the web, such as at the link above....that is serious discussion on bonsai. It is there to be found, for those who truly want it. It can be had here, there, anywhere, just do it, I do.

So why not stop jumping in like you did here just to throw barbs and actually practice what you preach? If you can.

And if you're going to throw a hissy fit every time someone does anything but praise your trees....stop showing them and just pretend they are perfect.

Will
I love it when I actually get under your skin....Rave on gas bag. Thanks for your resume...AGAIN.

Trees Will, It's about trees. We don't care about your words. Post some trees.

For the record I never condemed your practise. I said it will never be main stream, and will never be the be all-end all with bonsai. Achieve it, even strive for it, but don't let it be all consuming. In other words practise a little common sense like most of the world does in this endeavor.

Al
 
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cquinn

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I would like to see some of Will's trees also. The only ones I've seen have been initial stylings. I've seen lots of Al's trees, and I like them a lot. I would like to see Will's trees, so I know whom I should ignore and whom I shouldn't. I don't really care about articles. I can recite maxims all day, but that doesn't put world class trees on my benches.
 
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I love it when I actually get under your skin....Rave on gas bag. Thanks for your resume...AGAIN.
Under my skin, man you certainly have an over exaggerated sense of worth. Actually you only make me laugh, thank you for the humor, it is always fun to watch people who claim to be intelligent resort to name calling.

As to my resume, it is what it is, as much as you hate to see it, I actually contribute more than just posting pictures to the community.

Trees Will, It's about trees. We don't care about your words. Post some trees.
Nice words, Al, but without words, this forum, or any other forum, magazine, and most books wouldn't be around at all. Bonsai would certainly be in sad shape then. You see, it takes more than posting pictures Al, believe it or not, most people do more than just look at the pretty pictures, but hey, I guess we all seek our own level, don't we?

For the record I never condemed your practise.....
My apologies, it was Chris Johnston, not you that made the statement alluded to above. My mistake and I am sorry for it.



Will
 

milehigh_7

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:( *sigh* :(

The really sad thing is that you all have so much to offer. I don't want to ignore anyone because I need to learn. Oh well.
 
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I would like to see some of Will's trees also. The only ones I've seen have been initial stylings. I've seen lots of Al's trees, and I like them a lot. I would like to see Will's trees, so I know whom I should ignore and whom I shouldn't. I don't really care about articles. I can recite maxims all day, but that doesn't put world class trees on my benches.
I sense some confusion here, first you say you want to see trees so you know who to ignore and then you claim you don't care about articles......which is it?

I have posted some of my trees and accents here and all over the web, do a search, you'll find them. I'll post more eventually, but the truth is it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of my trees, good or bad, they do not in anyway change the facts, validate or invalidate my words.

While you're searching for my trees, google argumentum ad hominem

What you just did was attack the person, in this case me. The following is from http://www.goodart.org/attack.htm

There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:

Ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.

Ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.

Ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he preaches.


None of the above tactics disproves or resolves anything at all, such arguments are pointless and they offer nothing in the way of evidence or support for a belief. All they do is incite.



Will
 

Mojosan

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Oh Brother what the Frack art thou?

Al, I know this may be hard for you to understand, but this isn't and wasn't about you, it never was. never will be
Will

Oh Will, say it again Brother!


It is NOT about Will. Never was. Never will be!

Say it again Brother! Amen!!

It is NOT about Will. Never was. Never will be!


... man you certainly have an over exaggerated sense of worth. Actually you only make me laugh, thank you for the humor, it is always fun to watch people who claim to be intelligent resort to name calling.

LOL....... LMAO!!!

Hey, Mr. Kettle! Show me some of your trees, then I will know for sure who is faking it. How about it, no more bullsaht man, put up or shut up! You want everyone to think that you are an authority. Put up now, or forever hold your tongue.


I would like to see Will's trees, so I know whom I should ignore and whom I shouldn't. I don't really care about articles. I can recite maxims all day, but that doesn't put world class trees on my bench



Amen! You see, typical talking heads can recite what they read or what they are told, but that does not make them an authority. Is your librarian an authority on genetics because he can tell you what section it is in?

Mr Heath is just a poor boy wanna-be who writes articles about what other people do, and claims some kind of kindred spirit and osmotic knowledge because he has talked to them for his little website
 

buddhamonk

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Al, I know this may be hard for you to understand, but this isn't and wasn't about you, it never was. never will be
Will

Oh Will, say it again Brother!


It is NOT about Will. Never was. Never will be!

Say it again Brother! Amen!!

It is NOT about Will. Never was. Never will be!


... man you certainly have an over exaggerated sense of worth. Actually you only make me laugh, thank you for the humor, it is always fun to watch people who claim to be intelligent resort to name calling.

LOL....... LMAO!!!

Hey, Mr. Kettle! Show me some of your trees, then I will know for sure who is faking it. How about it, no more bullsaht man, put up or shut up! You want everyone to think that you are an authority. Put up now, or forever hold your tongue.


I would like to see Will's trees, so I know whom I should ignore and whom I shouldn't. I don't really care about articles. I can recite maxims all day, but that doesn't put world class trees on my bench



Amen! You see, typical talking heads can recite what they read or what they are told, but that does not make them an authority. Is your librarian an authority on genetics because he can tell you what section it is in?

Mr Heath is just a poor boy wanna-be who writes articles about what other people do, and claims some kind of kindred spirit and osmotic knowledge because he has talked to them for his little website
well you know what they say..."those who can, do and those can't, teach"

I propose we settle things the good old fashion way...



 
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