I’d love to look at the book but it’s over $200. There’s been a few suggestions for books over my time on the forum but unfortunately, realistically, they are simply very expensive.
But thank you for the recommendation.
Maple Branching Structure - Where to Cut?
- Thread starter jasonpg
- Start date
I’d love to look at the book but it’s over $200. There’s been a few suggestions for books over my time on the forum but unfortunately, realistically, they are simply very expensive.
But thank you for the recommendation.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Looks like its out of print - I hadn’t realized. It wasn’t nearly that price when I purchased it. Perhaps an appeal to @William N. Valavanis for a second printing?
Scott
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JoeR
Masterpiece
Would you mind drawing on the picture suggesting where you’d cut? May be too late now..
Yeah, it is now out of print. I have a copy.
Sorce, this isn’t a Boon vs Walter battle.
It’s Walter vs all the Japanese masters.
If you go to Boon’s garden, you will see that about 80% are pines or junipers. Those are Boon’s specialty. And they are his client’s preferred material. In general, it has been my observation that in California and Oregon conifers dominate the bonsai scene. On the East Coast, you see more deciduous.
Boon advocates and teaches deciduous tree development the way they are developed in Japan. Which is a slow, meticulous, growing method. This produces trees with few or minimal pruning scars. The amount of ramification developed is simply unmatched by anyone here in the US with the exception of Matt Ouwinga. It takes longer, but the results are superior.
That’s a shame.
A bit of an example of where it’s tough to get this knowledge, without either putting it all together from online or trial and error of doing it, which may take a few decades.
I’d like to have read it. William is certainly seen to be one of the greatest fonts of knowledge, to my inexperienced eyes (and seemingly to many others, experienced too).
Keep hold of that book, it’s a collectors item now!
Gustavo Martins
Omono
My opinion, based on what I have read, not personal experience, is that both methods are not that different. I mean, I'm sure Pall's method also includes cutting back hard in late fall/winter. The only difference is the pruning during the growing season. The way I see it, the hedge method cuts the apical buds and hence promotes back buding which are then dealt with later in the year (winter). In contrast, the Japanese method addresses this continuously throughout the year... Which method is better? I do not know. I've seen beautiful trees created with either...
one should do an experiment use both methods side by side...
my two pence
Well, the Japanese method also involves wiring new shoots while they can still be manipulated prior to lignification. This allows the artist to put in curves in wood between nodes.
Walter’s method would not. Shearing back may produce backbudding, and new shoots would emerge, then grow straight on from there. Subsequent shearing might induce more new shoots, but again, new growth would then extend in thee direction the buds are pointed.
This leads to angular (sharp) changes of direction at bud internodes, and straight growth in between the internodes.
The Japanese method allows curves to be introduced between leaf internodes. These curves once the green shoots have lignified will be there forever.
Wiring in winter is admittedly easier because the leaves are out of the way, but growth that lignified in spring will be quite stiff by winter and is very subject to breaking. It’s also more difficult to change the angle the branch emerges from the trunk or larger branch once it has lignified.
Summer and spring wiring of deciduous trees is not totally without risk, the soft shoots are easily damaged. So a great deal of care must be taken when wiring the young shoots. The good thing is if a young shoot is damaged there’s a good chance that another new shoot will emerge at that very same place.
@sorce, I believe that the reason you hear more advocate of WP is that his method appears to be easier for most people. He is also very openly promoting his techniques and approach towards bonsai in an effort to wrest the art from the Japanese as the standard of excellence. He is the noisy rabble rouser banging on the drums for attention. Meanwhile, the Japanese go on quietly producing their amazing trees.
Don’t misunderstand, WP has some wonderful trees. But none can approach the level of refinement the Japanese have mastered. WP would say that his style is more Naturalistic. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. Bonsai is an art. I liken WP’s method as creating paintings using a pallet knife, whereas the Japanese paint using very fine brushes. Both can produce beautiful images.
Walter’s method would not. Shearing back may produce backbudding, and new shoots would emerge, then grow straight on from there. Subsequent shearing might induce more new shoots, but again, new growth would then extend in thee direction the buds are pointed.
This leads to angular (sharp) changes of direction at bud internodes, and straight growth in between the internodes.
The Japanese method allows curves to be introduced between leaf internodes. These curves once the green shoots have lignified will be there forever.
Wiring in winter is admittedly easier because the leaves are out of the way, but growth that lignified in spring will be quite stiff by winter and is very subject to breaking. It’s also more difficult to change the angle the branch emerges from the trunk or larger branch once it has lignified.
Summer and spring wiring of deciduous trees is not totally without risk, the soft shoots are easily damaged. So a great deal of care must be taken when wiring the young shoots. The good thing is if a young shoot is damaged there’s a good chance that another new shoot will emerge at that very same place.
@sorce, I believe that the reason you hear more advocate of WP is that his method appears to be easier for most people. He is also very openly promoting his techniques and approach towards bonsai in an effort to wrest the art from the Japanese as the standard of excellence. He is the noisy rabble rouser banging on the drums for attention. Meanwhile, the Japanese go on quietly producing their amazing trees.
Don’t misunderstand, WP has some wonderful trees. But none can approach the level of refinement the Japanese have mastered. WP would say that his style is more Naturalistic. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. Bonsai is an art. I liken WP’s method as creating paintings using a pallet knife, whereas the Japanese paint using very fine brushes. Both can produce beautiful images.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I would love to see either up close!
I have a supreme respect for the Japanese Method and their attention to detail.
If I found a nice pancake, nice...pancake trident or something, all efforts would be scarless....
But I don't mind a sustainable tree that produces images like WP always graces us with either!
My thing is...
We need to stop fooling ourselves into thinking some of the crap we collect or buy will ever be as fantastic as a Japanese tree..
When a beautiful image is faster to create using Walters method....
Its better than a quasi American collected Butt stick!
Lol!
This particular tree....
Seems has the potential to become whatever Jason wants it to be!
Gangster!
Sorce
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
The thing we forget is the Japanese trees are developped slowly over a lot of years. The moment we have the patience to take our time to develop them we will have them (over 20 years).
Indeed! Bill Valalvanis has many 50 year old Maples he’s grown from cuttings.
@sorce ,
Your comment about how no one here uses a “Boon tree”, but several use a WP tree as their avatar bugs me.
My avatar was once a “Boon tree”. I bought it from him 5 or 6 years ago. He had just purchased it from one of his clients, who owned it fo a decade. But Boon had worked on it a couple times each year during that decade. I have worked on it for the past 5 years. Sure, Boon has reviewed my work and made suggestions, but it’s my work.
People who use others trees,well, I wonder why they do. Some use WP’s trees, I’ve seen someone use Naka’s “Goshin” as an avatar. I’ve seen famous Japanese trees used. Do they think no knows anything about those trees? Are they trying to ass off as being Masters when they’re not?
Alas...
Changing the subject a bit, part of the reason you don’t see much of Boon’s deciduous work is because of me. I’m the one posting, and I am very much prejudiced towards the pines! If my friend Morgan were the one posting, it would be very different! Morgan much prefers deciduous. So that’s what he works on when he goes to Boon’s.
Your comment about how no one here uses a “Boon tree”, but several use a WP tree as their avatar bugs me.
My avatar was once a “Boon tree”. I bought it from him 5 or 6 years ago. He had just purchased it from one of his clients, who owned it fo a decade. But Boon had worked on it a couple times each year during that decade. I have worked on it for the past 5 years. Sure, Boon has reviewed my work and made suggestions, but it’s my work.
People who use others trees,well, I wonder why they do. Some use WP’s trees, I’ve seen someone use Naka’s “Goshin” as an avatar. I’ve seen famous Japanese trees used. Do they think no knows anything about those trees? Are they trying to ass off as being Masters when they’re not?
Alas...
Changing the subject a bit, part of the reason you don’t see much of Boon’s deciduous work is because of me. I’m the one posting, and I am very much prejudiced towards the pines! If my friend Morgan were the one posting, it would be very different! Morgan much prefers deciduous. So that’s what he works on when he goes to Boon’s.
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
The joys of a circular argument !!!
Lol, no one is correct, but everyone tries to convince everyone else that they are right.
Boon vs WP - come on guys - it’s like trying to compare Mozart with Beethoven or Monet with Picasso.
No one is CORRECT, no one is BETTER, and no one should be JUDGED.
Carry on with your circular fun if you wish.
I thought this thread was on pruning techniques.
Charles
Lol, no one is correct, but everyone tries to convince everyone else that they are right.
Boon vs WP - come on guys - it’s like trying to compare Mozart with Beethoven or Monet with Picasso.
No one is CORRECT, no one is BETTER, and no one should be JUDGED.
Carry on with your circular fun if you wish.
I thought this thread was on pruning techniques.
Charles
It's Kev
Omono
The 1st page of this thread is a very good read though, then the wheels came off.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
I had no idea it was that much either! Got my copy for $60 I think..
No longer
.Sure, to go back on topic. I have been heavily debating when to prune my japanace maple, green Acer Palmatum, no cultivar. I think I have missed the time during dormancy and now next best is to wait till mid summer when things have hardened off. Today it’s first leaves are just coming out.
I have hard pruning work to do on it, quite major and everywhere I read, this I see not the time to do that work. So I think I’ve decided now to wait.
If anyone would like to tell me I’m right or wrong, please do! I’m gonna go prune some elms... kinda bummed I missed the timing for my maple but I have only myself to blame.
RobertB
Chumono
I trunk chopped two maples this yr. The first one during my mid winter and the second when buds were pushing / repotting. The trunk chop during winter exploded into a bunch of back buds just under the chop (around the same time that buds were pushing on branches below chop).
The maple chopped (2 weeks ago) during bud push has not pushed any new buds (on trunk underneath chop site) while the buds on the branches, underneath the chop, have just about opened. Probably still a little early to tell for sure but I was hoping for trunk buds but still cannot see any starting.
Did this as a little experiment. The only thing that could throw it off for me as that the second chop tree had pretty long branches underneath the chop site that did not get pruned at all. Not sure if the energy could just re-direct into those branches without budding on trunk.
The maple chopped (2 weeks ago) during bud push has not pushed any new buds (on trunk underneath chop site) while the buds on the branches, underneath the chop, have just about opened. Probably still a little early to tell for sure but I was hoping for trunk buds but still cannot see any starting.
Did this as a little experiment. The only thing that could throw it off for me as that the second chop tree had pretty long branches underneath the chop site that did not get pruned at all. Not sure if the energy could just re-direct into those branches without budding on trunk.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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As trees like maples break dormancy, they bring into play almost all of their stored energy to power new foliage growth and distribute it to the buds most likely to strengthen the tree by growing well, ie., the buds at the ends of branches and higher up in the canopy. When you chopped your tree mid winter, there was still a fair amount of stored carbs in the trunk and roots that could be utilized by dormant buds near the chop site. By chopping the second tree after buds have pushed and also repotting at the same time, there was little energy in reserve to help push dormant buds into active growth. I've personally cut back large branches on my trees, knowing there were dormant buds present closer to the trunk, after the buds have pushed, only to lose the entire branch as no new buds popped. Your best plan now is to seal the chop if you haven't already, fertilize well and hope a bud or two breaks before the trunk dies back from the chop.
RobertB
Chumono
Makes perfect sense to me. I chopped back to a new leader so wasn't to worried about that on the spring chop. The winter chop was chopped hoping for a new leader. Was caught up between chopping it in winter or spring, so I just couldn't resist. Now Im glad I chopped the first one in winter. Thank you.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Best in late fall. No bleeding and maple gets time to set buds ready to burst. Late winter is still ok but I would expect less backbudding bit depends on what you need or want. I would wait until late spring (mid June) after everything is hardened. I don't expect big problems on other timing but it is less optimal. Do it less optimal and you lose quickly a year of growth. Always better to wait.
