Mile High Bonsai

[therianthrope]

Hi everybody! Thought you might be interested in a little update.

Since we last spoke I joined my local bonsai club (in February) and acquired a couple of trees (from a couple of nurseries in late March/early April).

This white spruce had a decent trunk diameter, already exposed nebari, as well as the candle had been lost before I even acquired it, so it already had some good back budding going on and general compact growth. Not much movement to the trunk, but for what I have planned for it, won't need much. Best of all it was $10. Here it is pictured in one of three grow boxes I banged together from pallet wood. Since re-potting, it has continued to back bud and new growth. I placed the grow box at an incline to try and encourage some natural tilting for an informal upright design, before I wire it in the early fall (which is when I read you should wait 'til to wire spruces... can anyone verify that?)
This pic was taken immediately after re-potting, at which point I'd had it for about a week.
This pic was taken today, about a month after re-potting. You can see the bright green of new growth.

This shimpaku I acquired in the bonsai section of a nursery, which I wanted to avoid, but couldn't resist as I felt like the trunk structure had great and easy potential. It was $15. When I went to repot it, it turns out it was majorly root-bound (no white-tips to the roots, very coarse) and immediately after repotting it had about a week of oppressively hot days... I did my best to keep it watered but it's losing some of it's verdant green. I hope it pulls through...



Both are in a self-mixed soil concoction of about 2:1, "Soil Pep":Turface.

Anyone have any advice for the little shimpaku?

 

[JudyB]

Be careful watering that grow box, it looks too big for the tree, and can take too long to dry out. (lesson learned the hard way (me) It slowed down a hawthorn and I probl. lost a couple years of development. It's doing fine in a smaller box now)

But looks like some nice starter material. I wired my blue spruce this past fall, and it did fine.
good luck

 

[therianthrope]

Hi Judy,

Regarding the grow-box: at this time, the spruce is about 12" tall, I would like it to be around 18" before I arrest it's growth. The grow-box interior is ~12x14 (was 14x14 but I put some blocks in there already to "shrink" it, what dimensions would you recommend for what I'm looking for?

It seems like the soil has pretty good drainage (a good portion of the water goes right through...), and being in Colorado with the string of 80F days we've been having, I've felt like the 2x per day I have been watering it hasn't been enough.

 

[JudyB]

It seems like an inch or two outside the current root spread is the magic number. I am a believer now about not doing a too big grow box, after my experience. I had pretty much 80/20 turface/pine bark mix... maybe you could up your organic, but it is after all a spruce...

 

[Dan W.]

Therianthrope, I'm glad to see you're still around, and welcome back...with trees! -- I just read this thread for the first time.... What a welcome!...lol. Anyway, there really is a great community here with plenty of experience and good intention behind any criticism.

I'm one who has killed my share of nursery stock...and lost a few collected trees as well. But you have to start somewhere. What you have there will be great to learn with and build your experience on. If pines and junipers are what you are most interested in then you're certainly on the right track. Make sure you allow your soil mix to mostly dry out before watering each time. If you keep them too wet you will rot the roots, especially with 2:1 organic. (this is why Judy mentioned the size of the box...too big and the soil will not dry out properly, resulting in root rot.) Also the general rule for conifers is to use mostly inorganic (ie turface) and less organic (soil-pep). Spruce seem to handle more organic better than most pines though. (The trend actually seems to be straying away from using any organic material at all in the soil mix.) When you collect only build the box just bigger than the root mass; by an inch or two at the most.

If you haven't yet...look up Harold Sasaki at Colorado Bonsai; he has a great nursery and can teach you as much as you want to know about collecting and after care. (I'm sure some of the club members in Denver will be helpful.) Also, when you are ready to start collecting or even just want to tag along and observe, I'd be glad to take you... if you don't mind a drive. I live about 4 hours north of you in WY. I can show you what I do and give you a plan for after care.

You have a lot of great resources available to speed your learning curve...Harold Sasaki, Larry Jackel and the RMBS just to name a few.

Best of luck,

Dan

 

[Dan W.]

Therianthrope, I'm glad to see you're still around, and welcome back...with trees! -- I just read this thread for the first time.... What a welcome!...lol. Anyway, there really is a great community here with plenty of experience and good intention behind any criticism.

I'm one who has killed my share of nursery stock...and lost a few collected trees as well. But you have to start somewhere. What you have there will be great to learn with and build your experience on. If pines and junipers are what you are most interested in then you're certainly on the right track.

Make sure you allow your soil mix to mostly dry out before watering each time. If you keep them too wet you will rot the roots, especially with 2:1 organic. (this is why Judy mentioned the size of the box...too big and the soil will not dry out properly, resulting in root rot.) Also the general rule for conifers is to use mostly inorganic (ie turface) and less organic (soil-pep). Spruce seem to handle more organic better than most pines though. (The trend actually seems to be straying away from using any organic material at all in the soil mix.) When you collect only build the box just bigger than the root mass; by an inch or two at the most.

If you haven't yet...look up Harold Sasaki at Colorado Bonsai; he has a great nursery and can teach you as much as you want to know about collecting and after care. (I'm sure some of the club members in Denver will be helpful.) Also, when you are ready to start collecting or even just want to tag along and observe, I'd be glad to take you... if you don't mind a drive. I live about 4 hours north of you in WY. I can show you what I do and give you a plan for after care.

You have a lot of great resources available to speed your learning curve...Harold Sasaki, Larry Jackel and the RMBS just to name a few.

Best of luck,

Dan

 

[therianthrope]

Thanks Dan!

Sounds like I should consider re-potting the spruce then - knock back the organic a bit (I originally just went by sight - i.e. a mix that looked comparable to what I'd seen at a club re-potting workshop) and maybe just put it back in the 1 gal. container I got it in? (I don't have any smaller grow-boxes, atm...)
Here's a couple pics of the mix, 2:1 may have been a little bit of an over-estimation on the organic side...
wet
dry

Regarding the shimpaku; I'm afraid that, with the roots having been in poor shape, and then the trauma of re-potting (took ~1/3 of the root-ball) and the string of hot days (and now we're getting a bunch of rain), that it's health is suffering (seeing some yellowing). Would a fertilizer help it out, or is there something else I could do for it?

 

[edprocoat]

Its never a good idea to fertilize a tree that is ill. Do you have it in the shade, a week or two in the shade usually is best when root trimming a tree to give it a chance to recover with the least stress.

ed

 

[Dan W.]

I could be wrong, but my first guess at the yellowing on your shimpaku may be from too much moisture. Cut back on the watering for now, unless it is already drying out completely before each watering? (Poke your finger in about 1/2" to 1" and feel for moisture before each watering.) I agree with Ed on the fertilizing...probably wait to use any for at least a couple of weeks. -- I believe one of the main reasons people new to bonsai loose trees is because they try too hard to keep the tree alive...so they over water, over fertilize and just end up being too helpful. I have plenty of experience in this..lol...I'm still fairly noob myself ,compared to most others here.

How long has the spruce been in the box? It may not be a good idea to re-pot again, but it may still help. I would wait for one of the others to answer that.

 

[evolve]

it looks too big for the tree

That was my first impression as well. Depends on what's going on with the roots, but I probably would have gone about a quarter of the size you've got now. You could probably insert another block of wood or two without much disturbance to the roots, if you wanted to mess with it.



Just a thought. Either way I agree with what's been suggested about being careful with watering. Even in a smaller container it looks like that mix will hold a lot of moisture.

For reference, I have a very similar blue spruce I picked up to practice (read: experiment) with. I put it into a screened basket with lava, turface, and pine bark (at 45/45/10). The thing is going nuts! Buds everywhere and many of them are huge. I removed most of the original soil when I re-potted and I water only when the mix is dry, which is almost, but not quite, everyday. I'm in southern Colorado. I'm also fertilizing with 10/10/10 every two weeks.



Anyway, not sure if that helps, but my little $5 spruce seems to like the treatment so I thought it might.

 

[therianthrope]

I believe one of the main reasons people new to bonsai loose trees is because they try too hard to keep the tree alive...

Heh, this is definitely what I feel like with the shimpaku at the moment...

How long has the spruce been in the box? It may not be a good idea to re-pot again, but it may still help. I would wait for one of the others to answer that.

I re-potted both about 4 weeks ago... the spruce seems to have done fine after the initial re-pot, with new growth and back budding. Maybe doing some excavation and blocking in would minimize trauma yet yield some decrease to the moisture retention?

... I probably would have gone about a quarter of the size you've got now.

Yeah... made the boxes before I got the trees. Probably was a little too eager to get them out of that nursery dirt.

 

[Dan W.]

Maybe doing some excavation and blocking in would minimize trauma yet yield some decrease to the moisture retention?

This sounds like the best plan to me. Plan on re-potting again next year into a smaller box or colander/pond basket. Just water carefully this year, and I think you'll be ok.