Mile High Bonsai

[therianthrope]

You are incredibly pompous...

And some people are disparaging.

I am confident in myself sure, but also there is a difference between being told what to do/not to do, and being told you can't do something. In some cases, I've been told the latter.

I immensely appreciate the affirmative input I receive and have received, I even appreciate the warnings of "be prepared for disappointment", however I have no use for outright statements that something cannot or should not be done. Does that make sense?

Insight into the difficulty of pines' delicacy of timing and inconsistent pruning response is great, I eat that up, what am I supposed to do though with "you've chosen something challenging" other than say, "I'm here to learn and I'm not afraid of the challenge"??

//edit: rockm has given and continues to give good input, I'm not trying to be disrespectful and I hope he doesn't feel disrespected, but just don't doubt me. Inform me, please. Please, please, do. But do not doubt me, that does no one any good.

//edit2: the aquarium thing was just a continuation of rockm's salt-water fish analogy... not looking at tropicals.

 

[rockm]

"I'm here to learn and I'm not afraid of the challenge"

The issue that you're not really picking up is that you can't really grasp the challenge, but sometimes that's a good thing, I guess. What I have said is that you could be closing yourself off to learning by focusing so intently on a single path. You could also be setting yourself back by insisting on learning the harder end of things first. Some of the bonsai principles needed to understand and master pines can be better learned with other species. Inducing effective backbudding, balancing strength in limbs and trunks, limb and trunk developmen, root work, watering and a few other issues can be learned using more forgiving deciduous species. Pines are not as forgiving in many of these areas and a mistake with a pine in one of these could kill it outright. The same mistake with a deciduous species might only be a temporary setback. Killing three pines through inept watering or wrongly-timed repotting is more expensive than making a correctable mistake on one elm or maple...

I don't think I said you shouldn't do what you plan, only to realize you could be missing out on a more rewarding experience for not seeing the forest for the pine.

 

[therianthrope]

The issue that you're not really picking up is that you can't really grasp the challenge, but sometimes that's a good thing, I guess. What I have said is that you could be closing yourself off to learning by focusing so intently on a single path. You could also be setting yourself back by insisting on learning the harder end of things first. Some of the bonsai principles needed to understand and master pines can be better learned with other species. Inducing effective backbudding, balancing strength in limbs and trunks, limb and trunk developmen, root work, watering and a few other issues can be learned using more forgiving deciduous species. Pines are not as forgiving in many of these areas and a mistake with a pine in one of these could kill it outright. The same mistake with a deciduous species might only be a temporary setback. Killing three pines through inept watering or wrongly-timed repotting is more expensive than making a correctable mistake on one elm or maple...

I don't think I said you shouldn't do what you plan, only to realize you could be missing out on a more rewarding experience for not seeing the forest for the pine.

Now why'd you have to go and talk so much sense? >.<

 

[rockm]

As long as I'm making sense ...Pines also have a (sometimes) expensive habit of needing rather specialized high-end-ish soil. Making your own from local dirt can be a very good way to kill your trees, unless you're familiar with how regular old bonsai soil works and why. Many successful bonsai pine growers use imported Japanese Akadama, or a special mix of extremely well-draining ingredients like pumice and other materials. You will have to locate these ingredients (another reason to join a club). The soil can add to the costs involved.

Unless you're very familiar with how to make regular bonsai soil and the principles a good soil should incorporate, using local collected soil ingredients can lead to problems for your trees.

 

[Attila Soos]

Interesting thread
But I agree what's been said about the pine.

People like me (when I was in my 20s), would NEVER listen to those who told me not to do something because it's too difficult for a beginner. When somebody told me what species is the easiest to work with, and what is the most difficult, I would naturally start with the most difficult, JUST TO PROVE EVERYBODY WRONG.

This is, of course, a commendable personal trait. But it is also the most expensive, most wasteful, most inefficient, and the most ineffective way to learn.
Just like when you build a house, you start with the foundation, and finish with the roof. You can also start with the roof, and finish with the foundation, but that will make things very complicated.

A deciduous tree can teach you about bonsai, at an early stage. And it gives you a sense of accomplishment on the way. On the other hand, working on a pine, as a beginner, will teach you nothing (because you don't know enough to learn from a pine). Additionally, it is very slow (you feel like nothing is happening), a lot of the mistakes you make cannot be corrected (you remove the wrong branch, or the wrong bud, and it's gone forever, while with a deciduous tree, it grows back most of the time).

By the way, this is the worst part with working with pines: you cannot make many mistakes. And for a beginner, you need to make mistakes, or else you will not learn. So, for fear of mistakes, you will end up doing nothing, which slows down considerably the learning process.
Of course, if you work with an ancient collected pine, things get ten times worse: God forbid, you will kill a tree that was growing since Lincoln was president. You may end up in the purgatory, for such a reckless crime.

 

[mcpesq817]

I'd echo what everyone else is telling you. For $40, start with a trident maple or a chinese elm - you'll get a lot more bang for your buck, and they are very hardy and forgiving. Just don't buy an S-shaped chinese elm from the mall

 

[stacy allen muse]

I agree with the comments regaurding pine, besides one might have a hard time of finding anything but some seedlings for $40.

I commented on your other thread, but will repost here, I personally would suggest some junipers, they are usually easily found at local nurseries (not Home dpt, or Lowe's, but real nuseries), and one can often obtain some fairly thick trunks for $40. I would suggest you look for nusery plants you can make into a bonsai. These can be styled in much the same way as pines, which will transfer easily over when one does move onto a pine, but they are a lot easier to work with and keep healthy.
You can start to learn on how to create and style a bonsai, as well as how to keep it alive.
Good Luck !!!

 

[jk_lewis]

I guess I have no idea what goes on at a bonsai club, but it seems like showing up without a tree would be like showing up to class without books. I have done quite a bit of looking in to how and what to look for when buying, and aesthetically I know what kind of tree I want (long-needle pine, a ponderosa was my intent), so if I can find something I like and it's a good deal, I might as well get it.

There is nothing wrong with going to a bonsai club meeting empty handed. You are going there to LEARN. So watch, ask questions. Get to know people. Let them get to know you.

And, just as we say that taking an experienced person along on a collecting trip, taking one along on a nursery crawl also is very helpful. Throw yourself upon their mercy and see if someone wold be willing to come along and provide advice on plants you select as potential candidates for mutilation.

It is, in fact, wise to NOT jump in to buying a plant before you have some idea of what it is you are looking for or what kind of bonsai you prefer.

Bonsai is not a sport of immediacy. Probably the most important part of making bonsai is patience.

Few Americans seem to know what that is these days.

 

[jk_lewis]

however I have no use for outright statements that something cannot or should not be done. Does that make sense?

Not really. It seems obvious to all of us that you have NO experience with bonsai (books and videos do NOT count). We all are trying to guide you into a procedure that will make your learning experience something other than a complete disaster.

Many people here have jumped into bonsai without have ever planted something even as simple as a radish. We usually read a half a dozen confident messages to start with, then a few panicked pleas for help, then nothing.

It appears you may have a bit more experience than that, but it seems logical that your first venture into the rather complicated world of bonsai culture would better end in at least a moderate success than in a succession of brown and crispy $40 pine trees.

Anyway, I suspect we've pleaded and cajoled all we can. The rest is up to you.

JOIN THE CLUB!

 

[mcpesq817]

It is, in fact, wise to NOT jump in to buying a plant before you have some idea of what it is you are looking for or what kind of bonsai you prefer.

I'd strongly agree with this, not just because you might need to learn the care requirements for a particular species. A few of us when we started out, myself included, bought lots of different trees, and tended to accumulate a lot of less worthy stock. A couple of years later, you end up asking yourself (1) why did I buy all that, and (2) how do I get rid of it?

 

[mrchips1952]

Collecting in Colorado

Before joining the Pikes Peak Bonsai Society I randomly took trips to the mountains looking for trees. I came home empty handed all the time. After joining the club, aquiring new friends and an abundance of knowledge I now know where to go to find the spectacular yamadori, how to transplant them and how to keep them healthy. I had permits for 10 trees this year and I have lost only two over the hot Colorado summer. The true test will be the winter months. Long story short....join a club. Books will teach you how to collect but it doesn't come close to actually going out with friends who know what they are doing.

 

[therianthrope]

Alright, well, here's what I'm thinking now.

I have an opportunity to get a couple young silver maples and a black walnut for free. Maybe not particularly traditional species, but if I can start learning some principles from them and they're free (either me or mulch), why not... ? So, I'm thinking maybe I get these guys for free now and start on some early studies working from books for now (still got time to get the pots buried), then (I have acquired some ponderosa and white pine seeds) plant some pine seeds now or next spring, hopefully I'll get a number of sprouts and then, since it's a couple years before you can think about initial cuts or anything, maybe by the time those are ready, I'll be better off to start learning from pines.

I will be joining my local club, however I still don't know that it makes much sense to do it right now, as they don't meet in December at all (except for a Xmas party), and only have 2 meetings between now and then. So, join in January and have at least some base in terminology and things.

That sound like a reasonable plan?

 

[rockm]

Both the silver maple and walnut are OK --- IF you can't get anything else. You've chosen two species that can be frustrating, but free is free...

Just so you know, neither make for very cooperative bonsai subjects. Black walnut is one of those trees that defies bonsai treatment. It has compound leaves that don't reduce and are a pain to work with -- you can't get a nice final image because the leaves and made up of rows of individual leaflets.You will spend a lot of time trying to sort that out- especially if you're working with a smaller tree. They're quite tough trees though.

Unfortunately, silver maple, is another one of those species that's not easily tamed into a small package. It throws long shoots with long leaf internodes, which makes smaller bonsai (under 15 inches or so) problematic. Since it's a maple at least it's more agreeable than the walnut though.

 

[mrchips1952]

Alright, well, here's what I'm thinking now.

I have an opportunity to get a couple young silver maples and a black walnut for free. Maybe not particularly traditional species, but if I can start learning some principles from them and they're free (either me or mulch), why not... ? So, I'm thinking maybe I get these guys for free now and start on some early studies working from books for now (still got time to get the pots buried), then (I have acquired some ponderosa and white pine seeds) plant some pine seeds now or next spring, hopefully I'll get a number of sprouts and then, since it's a couple years before you can think about initial cuts or anything, maybe by the time those are ready, I'll be better off to start learning from pines.

I will be joining my local club, however I still don't know that it makes much sense to do it right now, as they don't meet in December at all (except for a Xmas party), and only have 2 meetings between now and then. So, join in January and have at least some base in terminology and things.

That sound like a reasonable plan?

Why in the world are you bothering to plant seeds when you can get a 100+ year old Ponderosa next spring? I am not sure about you but I don't have that much time to look at growth from seeds.

 

[edprocoat]

Sounds like a good plan to me. The more knowledge you acquire, both practical from working with these trees and techniques you learn through reading will give you a good foundation for your future. I seen where you said young silver maples and a black walnut. I know that maples are quick growers, I am not familiar with the walnut though. I would try taking the maples out of the pot and plant it as if you are going to leave it in the ground and let it grow next spring with as much fertilzer and watering to get heavy growth first. Its not much to expect a maple to grow a few feet in a few months and that woulod leave you early summer to repot them and start to learn some training techniques. There is a guy here who has planted some impressive silver maples over a rock, I think you can search teh site and find it, I have read so many threads here that I am now lost!
Good luck with your tree, you will find that growing things is rewarding, growing a Bonsai is doubly rewarding if you enjoy the control of the plant you have.

ed

 

[grouper52]

Many people here have jumped into bonsai without have ever planted something even as simple as a radish. We usually read a half a dozen confident messages to start with, then a few panicked pleas for help, then nothing.

My favorite was the thread started on another site a few years back by a young guy in New York City, I think, living high up in a swank apartment with his wife.

His grandfather, who had lived upstate and who practiced bonsai, had died, and when the old man’s property was being divvied up after the funeral, our young couple fell in love with a gorgeous old Japanese Black pine that had been the prize specimen in the old man’s collection for decades. They claimed it, and took it home triumphantly.

Upon returning to the city and proudly placing the JBP as the centerpiece on their coffee table, to be admired by the many people they entertained, they came to the online site asking for advice, since the tree seemed already to be loosing a bit of its vigor.

The online thread also began to quickly wither, the sound advice from all the bonsai folks serving only to annoy the fellow, who insisted we knew nothing and were unnecessarily discouraging him with our unwarranted negativity, and that he was certainly clever enough and resourceful enough to find a way to keep the tree alive right there with ambient lighting, so that it would be in splendid form any time anyone happened to stop by.

Our pleas to take it back upstate to a setting where someone could care for it properly, and even our pleas to at least put it near a window or on a fire escape, were met with arrogant derision.

About the time I decided to advise him that the tree would likely do very well and still provide a beautiful display if only he’d move a bit to the side onto a radiator, the guy left in a huff, and the thread dried up.

Just one of hundreds, but one of my favorites.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Myself, I can't figure out what is cooler, to slam and ridicule some newbie, or to continue to post about it years after as though it was some prize winning award.

Therianthrope, seems to me to be interested in doing Bonsai... He may be a bit cockey, but he will fit in just fine with this bunch here at B-NUT. He has moved past all the silly squabling, perhaps others might do the same.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Therianthrope,

Do what you want to do... go buy some cheap material to start praticing on. Don't listen to garbage about only going out and buying good material, go buy what you like, and don't spend much money on it. Buy as much as you are able and are able to take care of, and start trying to shape them, and practice. Then when the club meetings come around go. Until then read as much as possible, check out all the demo vids online, and if you dare, ask some questions here at the B-NUT. Pretty simple.

 

[grouper52]

Myself, I can't figure out what is cooler, to slam and ridicule some newbie, or to continue to post about it years after as though it was some prize winning award.

Therianthrope, seems to me to be interested in doing Bonsai... He may be a bit cockey, but he will fit in just fine with this bunch here at B-NUT. He has moved past all the silly squabling, perhaps others might do the same.

Sorry, fella - not interested in suffering fools.

 

[Attila Soos]

Don't listen to garbage about only going out and buying good material, go buy what you like...

Yep, good material is bad for you, and bad material is good.
Hm..it makes sense, right? So, if good material is bad, we should call it bad-good material. And he cheap bad material is good, so call it good-bad material.
In conclusion, you should buy the good-bad material, that is not too expensive, because it is a few dollars cheaper than the bad-good material. Don't worry abut the possibility that the bad-good material would save you many years, since you are young, and time has no value for you.

Phew, that was a little complicated...

Here is my advice:
Don't listen to anybody on this forum. We are all arrogant idiots (with me, leading the pack), and our main purpose is to deceive people