Neli
Omono
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Neli's Box Store Challenge Tree Critique
- Thread starter Vin
- Start date
Neli
Omono
Just remember this is only my personal opinion...
The rest of the trees I will finish tomorrow,
The rest of the trees I will finish tomorrow,
bonsaiBlake
Chumono
Thank you for doing this. I like the way you lay out and explain your critique. It's really cool for someone(newb) like me to see and read a professional critique of different trees is really helpful.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I’m sorry I missed the Big Box Challenge; this kind of thing tends to ring my bells. I have been in the Western Part of the country for the last month and out of communication. From what I have seen so far, with a few exceptions, most of you are starting with material that is either too small, too young or both; to yield a good result. Here is the best lesson you can learn about the making of a bonsai: Most good bonsai are produced by cutting down larger material into smaller trees that can be made to look like bonsai that have been worked on for a long time. Learn this lesson as soon as possible and try not to waste your time in an attempt to style some pathetic little tree into something that might make a bonsai in 25 or 30 years.
It has been my experience that most of these little efforts will die anyway. A lot is said about the mortality rate of some of these bonsai demo trees due to an excess of growth removal. Though this is a possibility with older and larger trees it is also true with younger material that may not have the energy to survive the efforts made to turn it into a bonsai. Though few will miss the passing of a little in descript Juniper it is still a loss and should be noted and the reasons understood. A larger and older tree may well be able to handle the abuse of conversion the younger and smaller trees cannot.
By older trees I do not mean centurion trees that most of you newbies are not yet able to control but trees from nurseries and big box stores that are large enough to have large trunks and enough branches that you have some choices to work with. Most of what I am seeing here are trees that really have very little that would make them a bonsai.
I realize that my critique may be blunt but it is none the less true. When it comes to the artistic aspect of bonsai it is something you must learn or bring out of yourself, it takes time and that is the key issue: Time. You cannot stimulate or inspire the artistic spark with something that will not begin to look like a bonsai before your children go to college.
It has been my experience that most of these little efforts will die anyway. A lot is said about the mortality rate of some of these bonsai demo trees due to an excess of growth removal. Though this is a possibility with older and larger trees it is also true with younger material that may not have the energy to survive the efforts made to turn it into a bonsai. Though few will miss the passing of a little in descript Juniper it is still a loss and should be noted and the reasons understood. A larger and older tree may well be able to handle the abuse of conversion the younger and smaller trees cannot.
By older trees I do not mean centurion trees that most of you newbies are not yet able to control but trees from nurseries and big box stores that are large enough to have large trunks and enough branches that you have some choices to work with. Most of what I am seeing here are trees that really have very little that would make them a bonsai.
I realize that my critique may be blunt but it is none the less true. When it comes to the artistic aspect of bonsai it is something you must learn or bring out of yourself, it takes time and that is the key issue: Time. You cannot stimulate or inspire the artistic spark with something that will not begin to look like a bonsai before your children go to college.
Neli
Omono
My Darling,
You are back! How nice of you to come and help me...did you see the thread: Where is Vance?
Still I feel a lot can be learned from mistakes...and it is a step forward for many.
There was a limit on the price and the time participant had to find better trees was very little.
So let every one prepare a tree for the next competition well in advance.
You are back! How nice of you to come and help me...did you see the thread: Where is Vance?
Still I feel a lot can be learned from mistakes...and it is a step forward for many.
There was a limit on the price and the time participant had to find better trees was very little.
So let every one prepare a tree for the next competition well in advance.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
You make a lot of very good points Vance and I agree. Ive come to a similar conclusion.
The purpose of the Box Store Challenge was to get people to get a tree and work on it. Unfortunately, the constraints that were put on the material, although necessary, along with the selection of available material limited the possibilities somewhat. We were constrained to less than 2 gallon pots and the beginner and intermediate categories were limited to junipers only.
The BSC was good in that it got people to work on trees and helped newer people develop some skill. Neli's critiques will help some of us who havent developed an ability to have a vision for most trees to start seeing them as others do.
That said, for myself, Im not sure I will participate in the next one. I already have too many trees as it is and too many of them are nursery trees that will take a very long time to be anything if at all. I really need towork on what I have and if I am to aquire additional trees, I need to start improving the overall quality so I can advance my collection and my own skills.
The BSC was fun and it was a great way to get people actually working on trees instead of watering and waiting.
The purpose of the Box Store Challenge was to get people to get a tree and work on it. Unfortunately, the constraints that were put on the material, although necessary, along with the selection of available material limited the possibilities somewhat. We were constrained to less than 2 gallon pots and the beginner and intermediate categories were limited to junipers only.
The BSC was good in that it got people to work on trees and helped newer people develop some skill. Neli's critiques will help some of us who havent developed an ability to have a vision for most trees to start seeing them as others do.
That said, for myself, Im not sure I will participate in the next one. I already have too many trees as it is and too many of them are nursery trees that will take a very long time to be anything if at all. I really need towork on what I have and if I am to aquire additional trees, I need to start improving the overall quality so I can advance my collection and my own skills.
The BSC was fun and it was a great way to get people actually working on trees instead of watering and waiting.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I understand limits and constraints. Maybe next time I will be able to participate. Yes I did see the where's Vance thread. It seems to have disappeared???
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but my interpretation of this particular box store challenge was that it was not meant to produce trees that will become great bonsai in 5, 10, 15 years. It was to take cheap, very raw material and try to style it into something that looked like a bonsai pretty much right now. That seems to be a weakness that many of us who are relatively new share, the inability to find "the tree" within the tree. Even though I was not able to participate due to time constraints, I do find that a very worthwhile idea and hope to be involved in any future challenges.
In that context, survival of the tree is secondary (though of course it would be nice).
Perhaps some future challenges can be designed to incorporate larger material that actually has more potential to (1) survive, and (2) become a decent bonsai.
Anyway, that's how I see it.
Chris
In that context, survival of the tree is secondary (though of course it would be nice).
Perhaps some future challenges can be designed to incorporate larger material that actually has more potential to (1) survive, and (2) become a decent bonsai.
Anyway, that's how I see it.
Chris
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Neli
Omono
I would have prefer where the material is styled with its future as a consideration instead of for instant gratification.
But I know what you mean by to find the tree within....and that is hard, and needs imagination and creativity.
Vance,
here it is:
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?16462-Where-the-hell-is-Vance&p=223405#post223405
Check a question for VW also.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
That would be the ideal situation, but when the material is restricted to 1 gallon size general nursery stock at the end of the season, it pretty severely limits what can be done. Plus doing that much work to a plant heading into winter probably decreases the chances of it surviving quite a bit.
My thinking is based on the suggestion that often comes up on these forums, that beginners should get a bunch of cheap stock (junipers are often recommended) from general nurseries or box stores and just style them - with the styling being the most important thing. Probably somewhat larger stock would work better as it would provide more options and I think a better chance of surviving the process. Perhaps a range of stock, some like what was used in this challenge and some that is a bit larger would work best. But then you run into the problem of what to do with all those practice trees.
Maybe I'm off base here, but one thing I see over and over on these forums is people posting trees and basically saying they have no idea what to do with them. I've done that, and I've seen quite a few people who've been in bonsai for a few years doing the same thing. It's tough to get over that hump without actually doing the work, but who wants to take the chance ruining a nice piece of stock that they've paid decent $ for?
Just thinking out loud and trying to find my way...
Chris
Skinnygoomba
Shohin
I am enjoying this thread, it's incredibly helpful to me. I have the same feelings of the box-store challenge, I yearn to work on older material and it would seem a good 5 gal. plant would be just as well.
In the same thread of Vance's comment, I was recently looking for a JBP seedling and ended up buying a few trees that were probably 4-5 years old, the larger one I planted in the ground. It just strikes me as being a leg-up on a seedling and the price difference was minimal ($10 maybe). Saves a lot of waiting around.
I may go back again and get one of the ones that he has planted in the ground.
In the same thread of Vance's comment, I was recently looking for a JBP seedling and ended up buying a few trees that were probably 4-5 years old, the larger one I planted in the ground. It just strikes me as being a leg-up on a seedling and the price difference was minimal ($10 maybe). Saves a lot of waiting around.
I may go back again and get one of the ones that he has planted in the ground.
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes Chris your summation is 100% correct as to what my intentions were when I suggested the challenge initially. Although I also agree with many points Vance made, the purpose behind the challenge was not to develop material into bonsai 25 or 30 years down the road. The challenge did exactly what it was intended to do. It caused participants to really think about the many steps it takes to style a tree like material selection, finding the tree within, branch selection, branch position, pruning for taper, wiring etc. etc. It also gave everyone a chance to apply their knowledge and practice their skills. It was "hands on" and not read from a text book. The challenge should have been viewed as sort of an online workshop or an exercise in styling. However, many became “attached” to their tree and that’s okay but ultimately it may have influenced their design to the point that it became secondary over the trees survival.
Moving forward these types of challenges may not be everyone’s cup of tea and I’m fine with that. But for those that want to improve their skills (without spending a lot of money) and have a little fun doing it the challenge may be just what they needed. Heck, here we are two weeks after the competition ended and we’re still talking about it! There must be some validity to what was done?
Looking ahead to the next challenge I’m sure we will be making some adjustments. However, in my opinion if we lose sight of the “fun factor” and take the challenge to seriously many may not want to participate. We want to learn but we all want to enjoy the ride as well. As a thought, maybe there should be slightly different requirements for each category? For example, maybe for the advanced participants we could have them post a photo of one of their undeveloped trees and they have to refine it or something like that? We can make the challenge whatever we want it to be but in the end, not everyone is going to agree on everything. I would like to see it continue though.
As a final thought, there was a part to this challenge that some may have missed. The challenge brought us together and caused us to once again appreciate not only each other but what we love about bonsai. Members were helping members, offering advice and showing support. Almost overnight the whole tone of the forum changed. Not one; let me repeat not even one cross or negative word in any of the threads related to the challenge… No Goshins may have been created but many friends were.
And that's how I see it..
Moving forward these types of challenges may not be everyone’s cup of tea and I’m fine with that. But for those that want to improve their skills (without spending a lot of money) and have a little fun doing it the challenge may be just what they needed. Heck, here we are two weeks after the competition ended and we’re still talking about it! There must be some validity to what was done?
Looking ahead to the next challenge I’m sure we will be making some adjustments. However, in my opinion if we lose sight of the “fun factor” and take the challenge to seriously many may not want to participate. We want to learn but we all want to enjoy the ride as well. As a thought, maybe there should be slightly different requirements for each category? For example, maybe for the advanced participants we could have them post a photo of one of their undeveloped trees and they have to refine it or something like that? We can make the challenge whatever we want it to be but in the end, not everyone is going to agree on everything. I would like to see it continue though.
As a final thought, there was a part to this challenge that some may have missed. The challenge brought us together and caused us to once again appreciate not only each other but what we love about bonsai. Members were helping members, offering advice and showing support. Almost overnight the whole tone of the forum changed. Not one; let me repeat not even one cross or negative word in any of the threads related to the challenge… No Goshins may have been created but many friends were.
And that's how I see it..
0soyoung
Imperial Masterpiece
And this, I think should be a take away from the challenge:
buy some cheap stuff and find out what you can do with it
One's goal should also be to keep it alive and develop it into something that at least isn't embarrasing. But, if it dies, learn from the experience and try again (and not kill it).
So, what is good material?
Harry Harrington's progressions convinced me that I too can create bonsai. Pavel Slovak's work and his garden sabina progression, in particular, really opened my eyes (as well as dropped by jaw) to the possibilities.
If nothing else, the fun is in trying.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Yes there is. The first step is getting people to understand how bonsai is made, a subject I have already covered in this thread. The second is in getting people to exercise an imagination that can perceive a bonsai while looking at a piece of stock. Third is to put forth the effort to make it happen.
Nicola Tesla said: Genius imagined without implementation is hallucination. Simply said if you don't do the work and apply an idea or a vision or what every you want to call it you are spitting in the wind. You have to do the work in order to learn. You have to understand how the process works and what material is best in order to have the hope that what you do will work. The fun is indeed in trying, and if you try with larger material with more options your efforts have the chance of bearing fruit.
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Neli
Omono
Nice material!
Bad wiring! You need to learn how to wire!
Like the angle between the trunk and the cascading trunk.
Remember cascading branch goes down>>>horizontal>>>left and right. Sort of in a step fashion in principle.
Cascading branch has two trunks that are not in harmony. Cascade with several trunks is called waterfall...but they need to be in harmony.
First branch is preferably a back branch.
Not sure where you are going with the apex branch.
If you wanted a cascade with an aped it was going to be good to wire it up and twist it.
Future.
Cover the nebari in the hope of developing more surface roots.
Bend the jin if you feel it is in a good position.
let it grow for now to recover and bush up.
Neli
Omono
Is than a taxus?
Not very sure how they are styled, but from observations...they are more like deciduous trees, in growing pattern and with chances of back budding.
Nice material!
I think you are trying to create more slanting tree. In that case the branches on the right should be at smaller angle to the trunk and the ones on the left more upwards.
There should be no branches between the two trunks...try to bend them to the back.
Branches on the left tree should not be shaded by the right tree.
Leave sacrifice branches (yellow) to selectively fatten the tree, and perhaps you can use the pocket branch as a new leader in the future for better taper and movement. Meanwhile leave everything to grow to fatten the trunk and develop thicker branches.
Attachments
Neli
Omono
Basically I see many common mistakes here as with the previous cascade.
You have left some branches closer to the trunk, but I am not sure if you removed some.
Higher branches should be shorter than lower ones.
Do not wire branches on a pad in a horizontal plane.
Ones the tree is developed your jin will not be seen. It was going to be better to create it from the branches on the right.
Wiring of the trunk has bad pitch.
Try to give some movement on the lower trunk by bending it.
First branch is very low...so try to use it in future as sacrifice.
Remember branches are cut back before forming a pad.
Neli
Omono
I like your tree a lot! Good selection of material and good execution.
You have done well!
Just grow the branches now, fatten them, and cut them back for taper...and dont sale it! He he he!
You can make a nice shohin from it.
Neli
Omono
See the comments on the previous cascade regarding the movement of the cascading branch.
Your wire needs to have the same pitch and the loops need to be spaced closer...or you will break branches if you try to bend them. There needs to be a loop behind every bend.
Try to give movement to the apex branch.
Pads are positioned in correct manner: left right and on top.
See what back budding you will get and perhaps consider shortening it in future.
Give better movement to the cascading part and apex.
Fatten trunks and pads and cut back primary branches for taper. Keet for now all secondary close to the trunk, but thin if required.
Vin
Imperial Masterpiece
Thank you Neli for the critique. Two of the points you made are what I have the most problem with on junipers. When is a branch tertiary and not just foliage? When it's no longer green? And then, I'm never certain what to do with the foliage for pad development. Do you wire it or just prune it back?
