New Muranaka JBP

[faker]

Just opened up my package from George Muranaka, and I'm now the proud owner of my first JBP.

Hoping to develop this as a shohin, but not really sure on a direction to go with it yet. Seems to half some issues with a little reverse taper, but I'm hoping growing the bottom most branches out as sacrifices might help with that. If I was more experienced, I might consider air layering off the top half, but I'm thinking I'll stick to the basics for now.

 

[Adair M]

First, congratulations on your tree.

Forget shohin. Let it be a medium size tree.

JBP are difficult to air layer. You got this tree to learn how to do JBP. Not to learn to air layer. Which you wouldn't anyway since it probably wouldn't work!

The first thing this tree is going to teach you is:

Patience.

Because you can't do anything to this tree until mid to late fall. Meanwhile, water and fertilize.

In the fall, you can pull the old needles and begin to wire. But not yet. This year's needles are too fragile to mess with it.

 

[faker]

Thanks Adair! I'm honestly afraid to do anything to it because it's by far the "closest" tree I have to a bonsai, so I'm happy to just look at it, water, and fertilize. Will start working up my courage for work on it in the fall.

On the topic of fragile needles- I was extremely impressed with George's packing job. He had it strapped in and reinforced the box with PVC to prevent any damage. The tree was pristine!

 

[JoeR]

I saw that tree and almost bought it myself! But the reverse taper is not am easy fix and I was not up to the challenge.

 

[Adair M]

The only way to fix reverse taper is to let a sacrifice branch grow unchecked for as long as it takes. Best gone while the tree is in the ground. Next best would be a sizable grow box.

 

[faker]

The only way to fix reverse taper is to let a sacrifice branch grow unchecked for as long as it takes. Best gone while the tree is in the ground. Next best would be a sizable grow box.

Unfortunately have no ground to put it in. Planning to move it to a large-ish pond basket in the spring

 

[iant]

Ground is good but you can do a lot in a pot. I've done all my work above ground and have grown JBP out quite a bit in a pot (well, anderson flat or grow box, sometimes I stack one on the other.) Of course I live in CA so we get a few more months of sun. Enjoy! If you want to do things like thicken a trunk you got to let things go about 2 years between repotting and pruning. So you'd repot and get the tree very happy and then after 2 seasons (not cutting back anything) you'll see that it's putting on wood and scars are closing, etc.
Welcome to the patience game!
Ian

 

[faker]

Just wanted to post an update and get some feedback on two possible fronts I'm considering. Either way I'm planning on letting the lowest branch grow as a sacrifice while developing the rest.

The two considerations are what I think is the best way to deal with the overly thick branch halfway up+reverse taper.

Option 1 would be to hide it by pointing it to the back, like so:



Option 2 would be to remove the branch entirely and have the front be from the other side:



Trying to decide now because I figure it will be better to remove the branch sooner rather than later if I decide to.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice JBP, great potential.

When possible, branches should be on outside of a curve on the trunk. Also, the lowest branch should be the thickest. And another idealized ''rule'', branches should, if possible, be half the diameter of the trunk, or smaller. These are idealized guidelines, not hard and fast rules. Also, the "reverse taper" you are worried about is not very severe, easily ignored, I would not worry about it. IF you are managing your branch development to avoid overly thick branches the reverse taper will take care of itself. Letting a sacrifice grow to thicken trunk below the reverse taper is the best cure.

So given the above "guidelines", I would consider removing the thick branch in the middle of the tree. However, it is on the outside of a bend, the perfect place for a branch. You could keep it pruned short and let all the branches below it escape so they become thicker, Or you could remove the branch. Or, ehat I would hope for, a back bud on the trunk at about the same location, and replace that thick branch with a thin one. IF you learned grafting, you could add a new branch to replace the old.

All in all, many options. I would not worry about which side is front for a couple years. First learn to keep it growing. Keep branches wired to spread them out, and otherwise leet it grow.

How are you going to winter this tree? JBP is not reliably winter hardy in most of Chicagoland area. There are pockets right along the lake were they are hardy, but most of us have to give them winter protection.

 

[Adair M]

Leo gives good advice.

With pines, the usual problem is the branches get too thick. Fat branches on a trunk make the trunk look thinner. Thin branches on the same size trunk make the trunk look fatter!

Thing is, you can't make fat branches thin again.

Here's what I would do: (and have done myself). That thick branch Leo said is too thick, actually IS too thick! So, it should be removed... eventually. But Leo is also right in that it's in a good place: the outside of a curve. So... graft on a new branch directly below that one. Let the heavy one become your sacrifice to fatten the trunk below it. Either approach graft or scion graft right below it. When the sacrifice branch is removed, you'll have a replacement right where you need it!

Grafting sounds a lot harder than it actually is. Not all will take, but some do. Keep trying, you'll get one to take. (Many of the great Japanese trees we've marveled at have been grafted!)

 

[Smoke]

Here are some benches at Muranaka's place where this tree was probably pulled from for sale.







And pines in the ground.

 

[faker]

Nice JBP, great potential.

How are you going to winter this tree? JBP is not reliably winter hardy in most of Chicagoland area. There are pockets right along the lake were they are hardy, but most of us have to give them winter protection.

My plan right now for winter is to mulch my plants together in a large rubbermaid tub in a wind sheltered location. I'm closer to the lake and my area is warmed a bit by the urban heat island effect, so I'm hoping that will be enough

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Make sure rubbermaid tub does not fill up with melt water, make sure it drains. Make sure trees don't dry out, put snow on pots, when it warms, snow will melt and keep trees watered. This could work. Keep sun off tub, key is trees need to freeze, and stay frozen. Minimize freeze-thaw cycling. Site your winter storage in shade. Winter sun is your enemy.

This will work well, unless we go to below -10F. At that temp, JBP will not wake up in spring.

I winter my JBP in an unheated well house, an underground room beneath my patio. It hover's between 32 F and 40 F (0 C to 4 C). When I kept them under the benches I would loose JBP every 3 or 4th winter, when we would hit sub-zero temps. And there is no forecast for winter severity that is reliable enough to trust.

Do you have a garage, or storage shed? Someplace that will be a little warmer in the worst weather? Perhaps if sub-zero is predicted, bring the tub to that place for the worst nights.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Keep your tree in winter storage location until the street trees in the landscape have actual leaves visible. Don't put them out too early, spring frosts can be a problem.

Because you are close to the lake, when you do put your tree out, make sure it is in full sun. And don't do any spring work until you actually see buds growing. JBP can be slow to wake up if we get a lot of lake effect. THey need heat to wake up, if Lake keeps you in 50's your tree might stay dormant until you get a week of 70's and 80's which for me once or twice did not come until June. So let the tree tell you when it has woken up, don't just look at the calendar, and say it's May 1, spring, time to repot. 3 or 4 years ago I had redbud and forsythia trees still in bloom on June 10, because I had steady cold wind off the lake all of May keeping me in the 40's & 50's F. So use trees in landscape and your tree in front of you to decide where you are at on the calendar, it varies a lot depending on the degree of "Lake Effect" that year. FOr me Spring can be as much as 4 weeks on way or the other depending on that year's weather systems and how they strengthen or weaken Lake Effect. Bonsai people 5 miles away from the lake west of me, often have very different spring, warming up much sooner. And because of lake effect I have had years where I was frost free for a month or more than my neighbors to the west.

 

[petegreg]

Make sure rubbermaid tub does not fill up with melt water, make sure it drains. Make sure trees don't dry out, put snow on pots, when it warms, snow will melt and keep trees watered. This could work. Keep sun off tub, key is trees need to freeze, and stay frozen. Minimize freeze-thaw cycling. Site your winter storage in shade. Winter sun is your enemy.

This will work well, unless we go to below -10F. At that temp, JBP will not wake up in spring.

I winter my JBP in an unheated well house, an underground room beneath my patio. It hover's between 32 F and 40 F (0 C to 4 C). When I kept them under the benches I would loose JBP every 3 or 4th winter, when we would hit sub-zero temps. And there is no forecast for winter severity that is reliable enough to trust.

Do you have a garage, or storage shed? Someplace that will be a little warmer in the worst weather? Perhaps if sub-zero is predicted, bring the tub to that place for the worst nights.

Leo, reading this I start to re-think my plan for wintering my JBPs...

I've got two possibilities.
1) Well protected place on my balcony, no wind, no sun, but the temperatures go below -20℃.
2) A cold room with winter temperatures from 2-10 ℃. This one is perfect for my subtropicals, including the Italian stone pines.
Which one would you prefer?

 

[Eric Group]

Leo, reading this I start to re-think my plan for wintering my JBPs...

I've got two possibilities.
1) Well protected place on my balcony, no wind, no sun, but the temperatures go below -20℃.
2) A cold room with winter temperatures from 2-10 ℃. This one is perfect for my subtropicals, including the Italian stone pines.
Which one would you prefer?

The cold room.
-20C is a bit much for JBP probably. They can handle a decent winter, but also do fine with little/ no dormancy. Probably erroring on the side of warmer is better with them.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would opt for the cold room, 0 to +10 C is better. If at all possible, keep it in the colder spot, 0 to +4 C is perfect. But JBP does not "wake up" and grow until temps are above +15 C, so your room will likely keep it nice and dormant, if you leave it outside long enough to go fully dormant. Bring it into the cold room once temps start dropping to - 3 to -5 C. Try to give it a month or two of nights below +4 C to make sure it is dormant. Then while in the cold room light levels won't be important if it is fully dormant. My cold room has no light. Just a fan to keep air moving. My pines and Satsuki azalea do fine with no light for 3 to 4 months. My cold room stays at ground temperature. Some things do wake up a little early on me as the ground warms in spring. I do have a problem with Japanese maples sprouting before last frost date. They wake up early. But I never had a problem with JBP waking up early, they really do need heat to start the spring cycle of growth.

 

[petegreg]

Thank you both Eric and Leo, perfect information. Saved your responses. Good I asked... Well I will wait for the first cool weather, let them expose to the first frosts and then they will spent the rest of winter with my P. pinea.

 

[MichaelS]

Branch 1 is the cause of your taper problem. It has to go. BUT! If you decide you really need a branch there, I would suggest grafting a scion at point 2, and removing the branch about 1 year after the graft has healed and is growing well. In the mean time all you need to do is keep pruning back vigorous shoots from that branch so it does not get to far away from you. You may find by tilting and turning that you can get by without a branch there at all in which case you can go ahead a remove it now.
If you don't want to graft but want to keep the branch, it is also possible to remove the top half of the branch by cutting along the red line (thereby reducing it's mass and influence on the trunk) and using bud 3 as the new leader for that branch.