Not Liking Certain Features of Trees in Nature

[sparklemotion]

I agree. I didn’t really appreciate the deadwood junipers until I went on a mountain hike in the Sierras to study them. Now, after seeing some 3000 year old trees, with awesome deadwood, I understand.

I want to second this, and offer my experience as someone who didn't think that juniper bonsai looked anything like actual trees until I leafed through a copy of Beth Moon's Ancient Skies, Ancient Trees. [amazon]. (one sample photo is attached below, others are at: https://potd.pdnonline.com/2016/10/42319/)

Junipers are still not not my favorite bonsai species, but I at least kind of understand what people are getting at now.

As to your original question -- I think the answer is that if a species, would, in the wild, have features that you dislike, maybe that's a reason to avoid that species. We ask so much of the trees already, without trying to fight their very nature as well (not that can't be a good challenge too).

 

[AlainK]

As to your original question -- I think the answer is that if a species, would, in the wild, have features that you dislike, maybe that's a reason to avoid that species.

 

[Vance Wood]

I will repeat what I have been saying around here for many years, there are no rules really, there are only detailed analysis of successful techniques applied to particular artistic applications that many people like so much they are emulated over and over in the creation of bonsai because they produce the kind of results that make the expression of bonsai unique.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

That is a loaded assumption. On a technical level, perhaps a good guitarist requires the same capabilities, but you cant take Doc Watson and expect him to be able to compose something in line with Ripping Corpse or Dissection. Its a totally different attitude. It goes both ways as well. I could never see Chuck Schuldiner or Terrance Hobbs composing something like Roy Buchanan.

Both could likely play each others music but would it sound right? Would the attitude be correct? I doubt it. Hell, even within the same band people playing the same songs are criticized... Iron Maiden's new material is a far cry from their 80's heyday and the band is almost entirely the same, other than Janick Gers. They dont even get the same impact out of classic songs now.

reread what i wrote

i did not say that a maple could make a good pine, which is what your response seems to assume

what i said is that there are underlying qualities, aspects, and components that are common to the manifestations of them in different degrees and form

somebody who speaks english has A LOT in common with somebody who speaks any other language. Moreover, that which makes somebody a remarkable or excellent speaker of english has a lot in common with that which makes somebody a remarkable speaker of any other language. This is true in terms of the actual performance in an of itself, and in terms of social normative network in which it is evaluated

I did not say that somebody who speaks english well can inherently speak any other language

 

[TN_Jim]

trees don’t have to be old to have dead wood around here, unless manicured by an agreement with you neighbors

so many trees will discard limbs as they grow naturally -age and forces of nature rarely result in “clean” limb exfoliation evergreen or not...may die back and heal to trunk clean, look higher

here trunks and fat branches snap...jin just because you don’t want foliage on a branch but not throw the babe and water -sure can be a sore spot or distraction

there’s natural and not -you can do both, but know if your making still life or Geiger, or a smoosh.

that said, I’m not mad at any good tree with no jin

 

[one_bonsai]

What I don't fancy is when bonsai are over-perfect, or over-artificial.

I agree. Nature is never that perfect and I just can't visualise that tree growing in nature.

 

[Dragon60]

A bonsai tree should have all the features of that tree in nature. What if you don't like certain features? For example I'm not a big fan of jins in Junipers. I find them distracting.

I used to think that deadwood on bonsai seemed unrealistic. Sometimes because there was some crazy looking jins. But then I started to notice that a lot of trees where I live, which is in the city, actually have much deadwood. The tops or maybe large branches. Probably because of tropical storms and hurricanes. But that's still natural. So now when I see it in bonsai I do view it as natural, even some of the weird looking ones.

 

[bonsaichile]

I agree. Nature is never that perfect and I just can't visualise that tree growing in nature.

I dont agree. Nothing in bonsai is natural; idealized or overstylized trees have a place (and a major one) in bonsai

 

[TN_Jim]

worst jin

 

[Saddler]

You sure don’t have to like a feature in a tree, but it doesn’t mean that feature doesn’t make a bonsai look more realistic. Unless you have spent some time in that species natural habitats, you don’t really know what that species should look like. Seeing pictures is like seeing shadows on a wall.

 

[one_bonsai]

You sure don’t have to like a feature in a tree, but it doesn’t mean that feature doesn’t make a bonsai look more realistic. Unless you have spent some time in that species natural habitats, you don’t really know what that species should look like. Seeing pictures is like seeing shadows on a wall.

True

 

[Orion_metalhead]

reread what i wrote

i did not say that a maple could make a good pine, which is what your response seems to assume

what i said is that there are underlying qualities, aspects, and components that are common to the manifestations of them in different degrees and form

somebody who speaks english has A LOT in common with somebody who speaks any other language. Moreover, that which makes somebody a remarkable or excellent speaker of english has a lot in common with that which makes somebody a remarkable speaker of any other language. This is true in terms of the actual performance in an of itself, and in terms of social normative network in which it is evaluated

I did not say that somebody who speaks english well can inherently speak any other language

I actually think we both are saying the same thing here, ultimately.

 

[leatherback]

my trees are never in the running for Best of Show, but I'm always in the money for People's Choice.

Problem there is.. Most of the general public think this is a bonsai:


I for one do not do bonsai to create something that is sold by the millions in hardware stores around the world.

your
...
mediocrity.

Can I reuse this please? Finally a good way to put the problem with just accepting anything as bonsai and applauding each stick in a pot.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Problem there is.. Most of the general public think this is a bonsai:
View attachment 255483

I for one do not do bonsai to create something that is sold by the millions in hardware stores around the world.


Can I reuse this please? Finally a good way to put the problem with just accepting anything as bonsai and applauding each stick in a pot.

It is a bonsai. It is also an ugly, misformed stick in a pot that is sold to the uninitiated. It would never get any votes as People's Choice, anywhere. Remember, a typical show has 100 trees on display. Once again, purists like you who are unable to create anything other than cookie-cutter trees with broken parts characterize all others as deficient. Show me a beautiful tree from your stable.

 

[Adair M]

It is a bonsai. It is also an ugly, misformed stick in a pot that is sold to the uninitiated. It would never get any votes as People's Choice, anywhere. Remember, a typical show has 100 trees on display. Once again, purists like you who are unable to create anything other than cookie-cutter trees with broken parts characterize all others as deficient. Show me a beautiful tree from your stable.

Uh, can you post a picture of a “cookie-cutter tree with broken parts”? I have no idea what such a tree looks like.

 

[Saddler]

It is a bonsai. It is also an ugly, misformed stick in a pot that is sold to the uninitiated. It would never get any votes as People's Choice, anywhere. Remember, a typical show has 100 trees on display. Once again, purists like you who are unable to create anything other than cookie-cutter trees with broken parts characterize all others as deficient. Show me a beautiful tree from your stable.

I am curious as to what these peoples choice award trees you have look like.

 

[rockm]

It is a bonsai. It is also an ugly, misformed stick in a pot that is sold to the uninitiated. It would never get any votes as People's Choice, anywhere. Remember, a typical show has 100 trees on display. Once again, purists like you who are unable to create anything other than cookie-cutter trees with broken parts characterize all others as deficient. Show me a beautiful tree from your stable.

this is a defensive gobbled-gook argument. I have seen some REALLY ugly trees get peoples' choice awards at shows.

Like I've said before, all it takes is a lot of trunks--forests are big with the public because they've never seen one before, or trees with some kitsch tacked onto it, like a miniature treehouse, a miniature swing hung from a branch, a plastic bear menacing from the aforementioned forest, a car crashed into a single tree--there was a guy online a decade ago that actually made money selling tree/car accident "bonsai" compositions.

FWIW, this is the ultimate people's choice award. Note that the bonsai in it adheres to many bonsai "rules," but also manages to KNOWLEGEABLY break a few too.

Bag End Bonsai Trayscape - Bonsai Empire

A large hill (The Hill) lay to the north, and under its southern slopes Bilbo's father Bungo built the luxurious smial Bag End above the lane of Bagshot Row.

www.bonsaiempire.com

 

[Adair M]

this is a defensive gobbled-gook argument. I have seen some REALLY ugly trees get peoples' choice awards at shows.

Like I've said before, all it takes is a lot of trunks--forests are big with the public because they've never seen one before, or trees with some kitsch tacked onto it, like a miniature treehouse, a miniature swing hung from a branch, a plastic bear menacing from the aforementioned forest, a car crashed into a single tree--there was a guy online a decade ago that actually made money selling tree/car accident "bonsai" compositions.

FWIW, this is the ultimate people's choice award. Note that the bonsai in it adheres to many bonsai "rules," but also manages to KNOWLEGEABLY break a few too.

Bag End Bonsai Trayscape - Bonsai Empire

A large hill (The Hill) lay to the north, and under its southern slopes Bilbo's father Bungo built the luxurious smial Bag End above the lane of Bagshot Row.

www.bonsaiempire.com

Lol!!!

I’ve seen many family groups where they give the kids the ballots to vote for People’s Choice. Some winners I’ve seen included a witch who’s smashed into a tree trunk, an outhouse, a tree house made from popsicle sticks, a bear at the bottom of a tree with a guy halfway up shinnying up as if to get away, skeletons hanging by the neckbone...

 

[Saddler]

I can’t help but think that believing a people’s choice award is worth something is no different then finding pyrite saying it’s gold. People's choice award is just a nice way of defining the bandwagon fallacy.

 

[leatherback]

Show me a beautiful tree from your stable.

Sure. Mind you, I am just starting to push my experience levels beyond beginner stages. As such, I of course do not own the masterpieces like the ones you tend to show on this site. Oh wait. You are still going to take some focussed pictures of your trees to show us, right?